cross-posted from: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/9844277
Ah yes… we should send the Ukrainians… to the Ukraine!
We’ll save a fortune on transportation costs!
It was Biden that goaded Ukraine into flaunting it’s NATO ambitions while making it clear multiple times that America would not come to Ukraine’s aid. Europe is really being screwed here from both sides, on principle they support democracy and self-determination but they are entirely dependent on the Americans to stand up for that.
Wild, I got a comment removed for disagreeing with an account that has dozens of posts of pro-Russian propaganda.
Lemmy is turning into Reddit real quick.
“i made a post breaking the rules, and it got removed, even though I was replying to someone I consider a bad person, this is an outrage!”
Sounds like you’re too used to reddit
Edit: and your comment wasnt fucking “disagreeing”, it was literally just you throwing insults, you dishonest scumbag
Yeah, ever since the redditors showed up
Trust me, nobody here is itching for a fight with russia. Most of us just want to live our lives without worrying about a bully neighbour driving tanks (or riding donkeys, heh) over borders.
Ukraine isn’t fighting because we asked them to or because we want them to. They’re fighting because they woke up to an invasion.
And we will continue to support them because if you let a country grab land by force (let alone reward them for it, witkoff you idiot), it won’t stop there. It makes the whole region less safe. So no, it’s not about wanting a war. It’s about trying to prevent a bigger one.
Fucking Europeans are in no position to complain about other countries grabbing land by force and getting away with it. It’s rank hypocrisy to act like the antipathy to Russia has anything to do with principled opposition to “bullying neighbours” or “making the region less safe” when Europe is still shoveling money at Israel, protecting the people who butchered Iraq, Libya, Syria, and plenty more, and never found an American invasion they didn’t support until they realized it might negatively affect them.
Western countries have absolutely earned a lot of the criticism they get. Iraq, Libya, and the good ol’ US of A’s approach to the Middle East are pretty glaring stains, and Israel’s conduct has raised (justified) outrage, enough that even its own leadership now faces ICC warrants. Europe isn’t some angelic bloc either; it’s just that it does have legal and political structures (ECHR, ICC support, actual protest cultures, real accountability mechanisms) that at least give people tools to contest state violence.
None of that makes Russian aggression suddenly noble. Pointing out Western hypocrisy doesn’t magically turn Putin into a principled anti-imperialist. He’s running an authoritarian system that jails dissent, murders critics and wages a war built on territorial revanchism complete with deliberately targeting civilians.
If I have to choose between flawed democracies with internal pressure valves, independent courts and protest movements… or authoritarian states that treat brutality as a virtue, then I’ll stick to pushing the countries and systems I’m actually part of to live up to their ideals.
Hypocrisy is a problem, but open militaristic authoritarianism is way worse. The answer to western failures isn’t to excuse someone else’s.
Western countries have absolutely earned a lot of the criticism they get.
Yup, for instance they’ve earned the critism that they have no business claiming their opposition to Russia has anything to do with principles or morality.
None of that makes Russian aggression suddenly noble. Pointing out Western hypocrisy doesn’t magically turn Putin into a principled anti-imperialist.
Never said it did, so I can only assume you’re saying this to attack a strawman.
He’s running an authoritarian system that jails dissent, murders critics and wages a war built on territorial revanchism complete with deliberately targeting civilians.
Which are all things that Europe both do and support when it’s them and their allies doing it. What is your point?
If I have to choose between flawed democracies with internal pressure valves, independent courts and protest movements
All things that Europe emphatically does not represent when it comes to the middle east. Millions of Iraqis, Libyan, and Palestinians did not get to vote in your shitty rigged elections or get protected by your biased, billionaire owned courts when Europe decided to massacre them.
For that matter, Europe doesn’t even grant those things domestically to people with actual leftist politics; the moment an actual leftist party attains any real viability, it’s getting banned and it’s leaders arrested. The moment you try to an effective protest movement that might actually affect change, you’re getting beaten and arrested by armored storm troopers.
then I’ll stick to pushing the countries and systems I’m actually part of to live up to their ideals.
And by that you mean,: spruik them as righteous world police while demonizing their geopolitical enemies. You haven’t achieved one iota of movement in pushing them to live up to their ideals and you’ve already moved on to declaring how much better they are then their enemies.
Let’s be honest here; you’re support for Europe comes from the fact that you personally benefit from their policies, not because their policies are more beneficial in general.
Hypocrisy is a problem, but open militaristic authoritarianism is way worse.
Mate, the hypocrisy is Europe’s open support for militaristic authoritarianism! See, this is what I mean; you don’t think open militaristic authoritarianism is a problem when Europe does it; you just don’t like that the hypocrisy undermines Europe’s self-granted Mandate from Heaven.
The answer to western failures isn’t to excuse someone else’s.
No one said it was, though you seem to be saying that the answer to Russian failures is to excuse the West.
Europe didn’t even participate in the Iraq war, that’s a common misconception. It was just the US, UK, Australia, and Poland. And in Poland’s case they contributed just 200 troops. Sure just like with Palestine they didn’t actively oppose it meaningfully, but the Iraq war was like 90% American, 9% British, 0.5% Australian, and 0.05% Polish.
This is straight up misinformation. For a start, UK and Poland are both European, and for another, a huge number of other European countries sent troops to Iraq, and you’re straight up lying to say otherwise.
they didn’t actively oppose it meaningfully
This is straight up genocide denial now. Europe actively, rhetorically, and materially supported (and continues to support) the Palestinian genocide and the fascist ethno state carrying it out. The disgusting fake narrative that Europe were just this uninvolved third party who meant well but were too cautious to take action is Genocide Apologist Bullshit.
UK and Poland are both European, but the UK has left the European Union and is clearly America’s plaything so we can safely exclude them from the category of “Europe”, while Poland sent so few troops it became a meme. Most of the European countries who sent troops did so only after a unanimous UN security council resolution, supported by both Russia and China.
Oh and Norway apparently committed military equipment, so there’s that.
As for opposition, my country’s prime minister has been couped for defying American foreign policy, and the leading opposition are deeply-ingrained America-sycophants. Practically speaking it’s unlikely that any opposition would succeed and even if it the most it would do is cause a mild inconvenience. The issue of Palestine is even more fraught than Iraq because of Epstein.
I think you are also treating every western action as if europe personally designed it, when in reality europe’s record is more mixed. It has responsibility for serious failures, but in most recent cases it was not the main driver. Libya is one of the few examples where european governments pushed an intervention themselves. In lots of others, like iraq or afghanistan (or the US’s overall middle east approach), european states mostly followed the US out of strategic dependence rather than some unified desire to dominate the world. That does not make the outcomes less tragic, but it does mean europe isn’t operating on the same logic as russia, which treats territorial expansion as a central political project.
That’a why I separate western crimes from the structure of the political systems behind them. Europe has elections that can actually change governments, courts that can and sometimes do push back, space for journalists, and protests that occasionally work. None of this helped people in iraq or gaza, which is exactly why those policies deserve criticism, but it still gives european citizens real levers to pressure their own governments.
Russia superglues those levers in place. Opposition is criminalised, media is destroyed, and elections are for show. That is not a small difference. It affects what citizens can realistically do and how the state behaves both at home and abroad.
So for me it is not about excusing the west or pretending europe is ‘moral’. It is simply that western hypocrisy does not magically turn russia’s invasion into something justified or admirable. I can condemn Iraq, Libya, Gaza and still condemn a war aimed at erasing a neighbour. That is not loyalty to Europe, it is just refusing the idea that one set of atrocities cancels out another.
I think you are also treating every western action as if europe personally designed it
Nope, I’m just referring to the actions that Europe enthusiasticly supported and engaged in.
when in reality europe’s record is more mixed
No more mixed than Russia; but for some reason (chauvanism), you only engage in this kind of equivocation for Europe.
It has responsibility for serious failures
And that’s the true hypocrisy of Europeans on display: other countries do bad things, but Europe just is “responsible” for “failures”. It’s not that Europe deliberately went out and did something bad, they’re the good guys, after all! They were just trying to do the right thing and unfortunately failed!
It’s disgustingly self serving. And solidly demonstrates my point.
but in most recent cases it was not the main driver.
And in many cases it was. Not that it matters that it “wasn’t the main driver” when it still enthusiasticly participated and supported these actions. “Sure I helped operate the gas chambers, but they weren’t my idea, I’m just a smol bean!”
In lots of others, like iraq or afghanistan (or the US’s overall middle east approach), european states mostly followed the US out of strategic dependence rather than some unified desire to dominate the world.
You would never in a million years attempt to make these kinds of disgusting excuses for anyone except Europe, and you know it. This is the break is hypocrisy and you know it. Russia also has it’s strategic reasons for invading Ukraine, famously, but I’m betting you don’t find that compelling. You only find my compelling when it’s Europe going “we had to help commit genocide, it was in our interests!”
but it does mean europe isn’t operating on the same logic as russia,
Actually it means they operating on the exact same logic.
which treats territorial expansion as a central political project.
And Europe treats global domination by Western capitalist hegemony as a central political project, which is much worse.
That’a why I separate western crimes from the structure of the political systems behind them.
Yes, I’ve already noted that you hold a complete double standard. Now you’re just coming out and saying it.
Europe has elections that can actually change governments
Bullshit: your elections are tightly run on rails to make sure that noone other than some flavor of liberal capitalist can win. Any time a serious leftist party becomes viable, it gets banned, or worse, all of the information people need to make informed decisions is filtered through media owned by oligarchs, and, must importantly of all; the people Europe fucks over the most don’t get to participate in your bullshit elections. If Russians voted to invade Ukraine, would that be ok? They basically did; Putin is extremely popular, and all of the most popular opposition politicians also support the war in Ukraine. This is not at all different to Europes genocidal brutalization of the middle east.
courts that can and sometimes do push back,
Europe has not prosecuted a single one of its genocidal war criminals. Not one; most of them still walk around as prominent national figures. They’re putting Tony Fucking Blaire in charge of Gaza.
and protests that occasionally work
In the sense that Europeans will express the against something they were after it has happened, just not in a way where they will compensate the victims or not do it again.
which is exactly why those policies deserve criticism, but
Stop. Stop this gross double standard. You would never in a million years do this for anyone other than Europe
but it still gives european citizens real levers to pressure their own governments.
Oh ok. That’s much worse. That means that European citizens in general are responsible for the modern Holocaust they support. That makes Europe much worse than Russia.
Oh, but it makes you personally feel empowered, and you only give a shit any your personal interests, as I pointed out earlier.
Russia superglues those levers in place.
As opposed to Europe, where those levers are consistently fixed in the same place as Russia, but allegedly the citizens could move them if they chose to, but they don’t. Which, again, is much worse.
Opposition is criminalised
Like every viable leftist party in European history.
media is destroyed
As opposed to simply giving oligarchs direct control of it, like Europe does.
and elections are for show.
Yeah, real elections are when you can choose between two ghoulish capitalists with the same genocidal foreign policy. And the people you exterminate aren’t allowed to participate at all.
That is not a small difference
Correct, it’s not a small difference: it’s no difference at all.
but it still gives european citizens real levers to pressure their own governments.
I’m sure that means so much to the people of Iraq and Palestine. The people of the imperial core choose to exterminate them. This is just straight up white supremacy: genocidal violence isn’t as bad if white people get to vote to commit it.
So for me it is not about excusing the west or pretending europe is ‘moral’.
Yes it is: you’ve demonstrated a whole sale double standard in the standard you apply so that you can excuse the West. A double standard of, essentially, “it benefits me personally, so it’s brutalization of foreigners is not as bad”
It is simply that western hypocrisy does not magically turn russia’s invasion into something justified or admirable.
Literally no one ever said it did, as I already fucking told you
I can condemn Iraq, Libya, Gaza and still condemn a war aimed at erasing a neighbour.
Would you advocate for Russia retaliating against Europe for it’s genocidal actions in Ha a, just as you advocate for Europe retaliating against Russia for its invasion of Ukraine? No, of course you wouldn’t: you reserve that status of moral world police for Europe, because you have a double standard and do not actually condemn Iraq, Libya, and Gaza in the same way you condemn Russia. Even though what Europe is supporting in Palestine is even worse than the invasion of Ukraine, you treat it differently. It’s just an “oopsie”, a failure to live up the superior platonic European mortality you treat as axiomatic.
That is not loyalty to Europe, it is just refusing the idea that one set of atrocities cancels out another.
No, the loyalty to Europe is the gross double standard and the implication that Russian atrocities cancel out Europes worse atrocities.
Dios mio! A liberal!
By send Ukrainians to the front…
Do you mean that the Ukrainian people are getting assaulted, kidnapped, raped, and murdered en masse while they defend their homeland from a unlawful invasion?
Some people never graduated history class or have a basic fundamental understanding of liberty and it shows.
Move this to shitposting where it belongs. Until then my only regret is that I only have 1 downvote to give.
Do you mean that the Ukrainian people are getting
assaulted, kidnapped
On the territories still controlled by Zelensky’s regime - yes, kidnapping and assault (busification) is daily occurence indeed.
murdered
Well, this is the point of busification, to send the people to die, so also yes.
Thankfully, Russia is slowly but steadily liberating people from that.
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Shitlibs complain about .ml censoring them and then when you actually look it’s them getting a comment removed (not even a ban) for calling people evil Russians and telling them to kill themselves
I literally had a comment removed and was soft banned from World News for suggesting you had an alt account with no explanation why.
You got a one day ban for direct personal attacks. Once again: people complaining about .ml “censoring” them are always just people mad that the rules got enforced on them when they’re used to the mods giving them a parse for having the same politics
You’re wrong, it was for bad-jacketing which currently is not actually in the rules for lemmy.ml or that News community.
I did not make any personal attacks, but I have seen a lot on here which do not get removed.
You said it yourself: for suggesting that he had an alt account. That could get you a ban on dbzer0 as well, in that case for “bad-jacketing”:
https://wiki.dbzer0.com/divisions-by-zero/the-golden-rules/
- Don’t be shitty. i.e. telling people to kill themselves, or bad-jacketing is bannable.
Thank you for the explanation, it might be worth adding bad-jacketing to the rules or code of conduct.
Is dbzer0 somehow related to lemmy.ml?
No, dbzer0 is its own thing. What they have in common is they’re both run by socialists.
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