It’s the opposite: anarchism will never be achieved without ML. Whatever method an “anarchist” society uses to defend against fascism and capitalism is by definition a state. Because any means of oppressing class interests (like capitalist class interests) is by definition a state. You can call it grassroots militias or community defense, but it’s still a state. Whatever we use to defend from reaction will only be needed until the threat is over.
A sufficiently advanced, socialist, ML state will then allow anarchist communes to grow and connect to facilitate the transition to full, stateless communism. Left unity is necessary not just before, but also after the revolution.
The Marxist-Leninist state bureaucrat class has class interests that oppose those of the workers. Critical Theory naturally predicts the outcome we historically observe of this bureaucracy becoming a new oppressive class that subjugates workers, violently suppresses anarchism, and fights any sort of political activity that threatens the power of the centralized state.
A Marxist-Leninist state voluntarily becoming stateless is as absurd as a capitalist state voluntarily becoming communist.
Anarchism doesn’t oppress class interests, it unmakes classes so that the people who used to constituted them have interests that align with others. Within an anarchist commune, there are no capitalists to oppress others for their greed, and there are no socialist bureaucrats to oppress others for their paternalism.
Just anarchist violence is defensive, stopping people from oppressing others. If there is a state that oppresses capital owners, then it is unjust by virtue of the “oppression”. You don’t need to oppress a “capital owner” to take the stuff that is in the building that used to be called “their property”, but if they go and assault people who take it then those people may defend themselves or get help to defend themselves.
And sure, people that volunteer a lot to defend others could become a class that can attempt oppression (whether as a junta, or just as demanding privileges for their noble task). But the same risk holds for any profession, and anarchy always works to subvert it. Typically, tasks are rotated so that the ability to do them is redundant so nobody has leverage to exploit others with them, and lots of more bespoke solutions are applied too.
In the end, looking at the people hanging out in the fort at the border with the nearby state today and calling them “the state” makes as much sense as looking at the people making dinner today and calling them “the state”. Both are doing jobs which, if nobody else did them, could be used to hold the community hostage and build a state; but which, if done anarchistically, do not centralize power.
Critical Theory naturally predicts the outcome we historically observe of this bureaucracy becoming a new oppressive class
That’s not what a class is and Critical Theory as a historical ideological project always functioned to defang dissenting voices and produce “compatible leftists”. The Frankfurt school was funded by the CIA.
A Marxist-Leninist state voluntarily becoming stateless is as absurd as a capitalist state voluntarily becoming communist.
It’s not absurd, it’s just hard to imagine in the current historical moment where the strength of reactionary forces means, that it is far off, but necessary in the future.
Anarchism doesn’t oppress class interests, it unmakes classes so that the people who used to constituted them have interests that align with others. Within an anarchist commune, there are no capitalists to oppress others
No, but they are right outside the commune loading up their cannons to crush it like the Paris commune. If the defence is successful, it will have forced their will violently on the attackers, who constitute a different class (capitalists). Yes, only on defence, yes that is a legitimate form of organized violence. That’s the point.
And sure, people that volunteer a lot to defend others could become a class that can attempt oppression (whether as a junta, or just as demanding privileges for their noble task). But the same risk holds for any profession, and anarchy always works to subvert it.
Take that sentence and replace anarchy with Marxism. It doesn’t always work. There were historical failures and mistakes, as has happened in almost every anarchist project.
For example the Spanish anarchists reversed their progress in woman’s liberation to appeal to liberals. It didn’t work. The kurdish anarchists sold out to the US empire and were betrayed by it again and again.
Marxists did wrong too. But because of Marxisms principled stance based on material class analysis, it’s much less likely to dissolve, succumb to error or become a tool to reactionary forces.
Anarchocommunists do better material analysis of communist revolutions and states than Marxist-Leninists do. That’s why they’re anarchists. Your “bureaucrats are not a class” spiel means that your “material class analysis” has a massive blind spot for bureaucrats as a material force that begets tyranny.
Boy I wonder why a tyrannical communist state ran by the bureacratic elite would propagandize a branch of communism that excludes the bureaucratic elite from material analysis.
Oh well, if only we had a form of material analysis to process this behavior. Maybe some kind of… state-skeptical communism? Anarchomarxism? Communo-anarchism?
Oh well a girl can dream…
That’s the point.
No, your point was that anarchist militias necessarily engage in oppression and are a state, neither of which you have yet demonstrated.
Take that sentence and replace anarchy with Marxism.
Okay. “Marxism always seeks to subvert one profession gaining power over another, such as a state bureaucrat having power over a farmer”. Oh wow, if you define Marxism as anarchocommunism then Marxism is good! I love destroying the state apparatus with my Marxist friends!
Ah yes, the good ole “statelessness can only be achieved with a state, trust me bro” argument.
Did you get whiplash just now from contradicting yourself? Also, I just love the assertion that defending yourself needs a state. Every time I think communists can’t get any fucking stupider, you guys really go the extra mile to prove me wrong
No, that’s just a misunderstanding about the definition of a state. Anarchists often define it as a monopoly to violence in a territory. This definition has its flaws. Marxists define it differently as anything that can suppress a class.
Anarchism has real enemies. Marxists generally want to work together with Anarchists. Those enemies do not. Their interests are fundamentally opposed to anarchism and Marxism. They constitute a class, because they are defined by their control over exploitative production. Defending against them is suppressing their class interests. Many Marxists are open about an how this struggle is fought. Anarchists will have to fight it too and they will use their own strategies. Whatever those are, if they are effective, than they constitute a state in the eyes of marxists.
Every time I think communists can’t get any fucking stupider, you guys really go the extra mile to prove me wrong
Almost all real life Anarchists are communists too. Did you just insult basically all anarchists that aren’t terminally online?
Because I said most anarchists are communists? Anarchists want a stateless classless society. That’s the textbook definition of communism. Have you ever heard of the anarchists Bakunin, Kropotkin, Malatesta, Goldman, Makhno? None of them were marxists, but they were, all of them, communists. And they said so. You should try learning some basics about the movement you identify with.
By your definition, practically everything is a state. Yours is a useless definition. Anarchists mean the current structures of states. I.e. Rigid, hierarchical authoritarian structures with monopoly of violence.
Well, I mean after all it’s not like Marxist Leninists, especially in Russia were particularly known for targeting and slaughtering anarchists or something. Oh wait, they were and they did.
All theory no praxis. Talk about lack of self awareness / willful ignorance.
I know, that’s a key theoretical difference between marxists and anarchists. However it is the definition that marxists actually use. And it is precisely what makes marxists want to work together together with Anarchists under many circumstances. So even if anarchists have a different one, they should still be aware of what marxists mean, when they talk about state for one simple reason: to not discard potential allies simply because of a misunderstand in terms. Because marxists believe in this definition, they see no fundamentals contradiction with Anarchists, no class antagonism, only differences in strategy.
Now there are good reasons to use this definition, because it’s rooted in material facts, class analysis, productive forces and ultimately in how a society reproduces itself. It’s a natural definition. The anarchists definition is vague, idealist and ahistorical.
Rigid, hierarchical authoritarian structures with monopoly of violence.
The only words that are not vague in this definition are “structures”, “with” and “of”.
What is rigid? How much plasticity is need? What is hierarchical? What about the unspoken, inofficial, undemocratic hierarchies that dominate every anarchist project? What is authoritarian? Isn’t it authoritarian to defend against fascism? Aren’t anarchists who defend their projects violently forcing their own will on those reactionaries who would love to crush them and exploit them? What’s a monopoly of violence? Do the Zapatistas have a monopoly of violence in their territory? The “checks and balances” and “control instances” and all that bullshit of modern capitalists state are not enough to not speak of a monopoly of violence, right? What’s violence? Do you include structural violence? The threat of violence?
The Marxist definition is clear, simple, historically applicable across the ages, based in material facts and leads to clear conclusions for how to conduct struggle and who to ally with. Like anarchists for example.
Centralized power doesn’t give up its station and eventually those who dont respect said power become a “problem” which is why anarchists exist to begin with.
Not if these decentralized militias are able to defend themselves against reactionaries. Then it precisely fits the definition that marxists use: they violently force their will (to survive and to defend the anarchist project) on to another class (usually fascist capitalists).
And the mediation of scarcity in a market society is still capitalism, regardless of how many linguistically inconvenient opponents you liquidate.
We seek material conditions compatible with the elimination of state hierarchy. Until then we seek harm reduction, and political outcomes which approach those conditions. Not trading one oppressor for another.
Sounds like you seek to be compatible with capitalist oppression while you wait for something that will never simply arise on it’s own without a fierce revolutionary struggle. I’m sure the material conditions will be right any decade now. Surely before the climate catastrophe becomes unbearable or the imperialist war machine steamrolls us all.
It’s the opposite: anarchism will never be achieved without ML. Whatever method an “anarchist” society uses to defend against fascism and capitalism is by definition a state. Because any means of oppressing class interests (like capitalist class interests) is by definition a state. You can call it grassroots militias or community defense, but it’s still a state. Whatever we use to defend from reaction will only be needed until the threat is over.
A sufficiently advanced, socialist, ML state will then allow anarchist communes to grow and connect to facilitate the transition to full, stateless communism. Left unity is necessary not just before, but also after the revolution.
The Marxist-Leninist state bureaucrat class has class interests that oppose those of the workers. Critical Theory naturally predicts the outcome we historically observe of this bureaucracy becoming a new oppressive class that subjugates workers, violently suppresses anarchism, and fights any sort of political activity that threatens the power of the centralized state.
A Marxist-Leninist state voluntarily becoming stateless is as absurd as a capitalist state voluntarily becoming communist.
Anarchism doesn’t oppress class interests, it unmakes classes so that the people who used to constituted them have interests that align with others. Within an anarchist commune, there are no capitalists to oppress others for their greed, and there are no socialist bureaucrats to oppress others for their paternalism.
Just anarchist violence is defensive, stopping people from oppressing others. If there is a state that oppresses capital owners, then it is unjust by virtue of the “oppression”. You don’t need to oppress a “capital owner” to take the stuff that is in the building that used to be called “their property”, but if they go and assault people who take it then those people may defend themselves or get help to defend themselves.
And sure, people that volunteer a lot to defend others could become a class that can attempt oppression (whether as a junta, or just as demanding privileges for their noble task). But the same risk holds for any profession, and anarchy always works to subvert it. Typically, tasks are rotated so that the ability to do them is redundant so nobody has leverage to exploit others with them, and lots of more bespoke solutions are applied too.
In the end, looking at the people hanging out in the fort at the border with the nearby state today and calling them “the state” makes as much sense as looking at the people making dinner today and calling them “the state”. Both are doing jobs which, if nobody else did them, could be used to hold the community hostage and build a state; but which, if done anarchistically, do not centralize power.
That’s not what a class is and Critical Theory as a historical ideological project always functioned to defang dissenting voices and produce “compatible leftists”. The Frankfurt school was funded by the CIA.
It’s not absurd, it’s just hard to imagine in the current historical moment where the strength of reactionary forces means, that it is far off, but necessary in the future.
No, but they are right outside the commune loading up their cannons to crush it like the Paris commune. If the defence is successful, it will have forced their will violently on the attackers, who constitute a different class (capitalists). Yes, only on defence, yes that is a legitimate form of organized violence. That’s the point.
Take that sentence and replace anarchy with Marxism. It doesn’t always work. There were historical failures and mistakes, as has happened in almost every anarchist project. For example the Spanish anarchists reversed their progress in woman’s liberation to appeal to liberals. It didn’t work. The kurdish anarchists sold out to the US empire and were betrayed by it again and again. Marxists did wrong too. But because of Marxisms principled stance based on material class analysis, it’s much less likely to dissolve, succumb to error or become a tool to reactionary forces.
Anarchocommunists do better material analysis of communist revolutions and states than Marxist-Leninists do. That’s why they’re anarchists. Your “bureaucrats are not a class” spiel means that your “material class analysis” has a massive blind spot for bureaucrats as a material force that begets tyranny.
Boy I wonder why a tyrannical communist state ran by the bureacratic elite would propagandize a branch of communism that excludes the bureaucratic elite from material analysis.
Oh well, if only we had a form of material analysis to process this behavior. Maybe some kind of… state-skeptical communism? Anarchomarxism? Communo-anarchism?
Oh well a girl can dream…
No, your point was that anarchist militias necessarily engage in oppression and are a state, neither of which you have yet demonstrated.
Okay. “Marxism always seeks to subvert one profession gaining power over another, such as a state bureaucrat having power over a farmer”. Oh wow, if you define Marxism as anarchocommunism then Marxism is good! I love destroying the state apparatus with my Marxist friends!
Ah yes, the good ole “statelessness can only be achieved with a state, trust me bro” argument.
Did you get whiplash just now from contradicting yourself? Also, I just love the assertion that defending yourself needs a state. Every time I think communists can’t get any fucking stupider, you guys really go the extra mile to prove me wrong
No, that’s just a misunderstanding about the definition of a state. Anarchists often define it as a monopoly to violence in a territory. This definition has its flaws. Marxists define it differently as anything that can suppress a class.
Anarchism has real enemies. Marxists generally want to work together with Anarchists. Those enemies do not. Their interests are fundamentally opposed to anarchism and Marxism. They constitute a class, because they are defined by their control over exploitative production. Defending against them is suppressing their class interests. Many Marxists are open about an how this struggle is fought. Anarchists will have to fight it too and they will use their own strategies. Whatever those are, if they are effective, than they constitute a state in the eyes of marxists.
Almost all real life Anarchists are communists too. Did you just insult basically all anarchists that aren’t terminally online?
You are one very confused communist.
Because I said most anarchists are communists? Anarchists want a stateless classless society. That’s the textbook definition of communism. Have you ever heard of the anarchists Bakunin, Kropotkin, Malatesta, Goldman, Makhno? None of them were marxists, but they were, all of them, communists. And they said so. You should try learning some basics about the movement you identify with.
nah, you’re confused because you’ve obviously read more theory than you actually understood.
By your definition, practically everything is a state. Yours is a useless definition. Anarchists mean the current structures of states. I.e. Rigid, hierarchical authoritarian structures with monopoly of violence.
Well, I mean after all it’s not like Marxist Leninists, especially in Russia were particularly known for targeting and slaughtering anarchists or something. Oh wait, they were and they did.
All theory no praxis. Talk about lack of self awareness / willful ignorance.
I know, that’s a key theoretical difference between marxists and anarchists. However it is the definition that marxists actually use. And it is precisely what makes marxists want to work together together with Anarchists under many circumstances. So even if anarchists have a different one, they should still be aware of what marxists mean, when they talk about state for one simple reason: to not discard potential allies simply because of a misunderstand in terms. Because marxists believe in this definition, they see no fundamentals contradiction with Anarchists, no class antagonism, only differences in strategy.
Now there are good reasons to use this definition, because it’s rooted in material facts, class analysis, productive forces and ultimately in how a society reproduces itself. It’s a natural definition. The anarchists definition is vague, idealist and ahistorical.
The only words that are not vague in this definition are “structures”, “with” and “of”. What is rigid? How much plasticity is need? What is hierarchical? What about the unspoken, inofficial, undemocratic hierarchies that dominate every anarchist project? What is authoritarian? Isn’t it authoritarian to defend against fascism? Aren’t anarchists who defend their projects violently forcing their own will on those reactionaries who would love to crush them and exploit them? What’s a monopoly of violence? Do the Zapatistas have a monopoly of violence in their territory? The “checks and balances” and “control instances” and all that bullshit of modern capitalists state are not enough to not speak of a monopoly of violence, right? What’s violence? Do you include structural violence? The threat of violence?
The Marxist definition is clear, simple, historically applicable across the ages, based in material facts and leads to clear conclusions for how to conduct struggle and who to ally with. Like anarchists for example.
Centralized power doesn’t give up its station and eventually those who dont respect said power become a “problem” which is why anarchists exist to begin with.
Calling decentralized militias a state is a pretty big stretch of the definition.
Not if these decentralized militias are able to defend themselves against reactionaries. Then it precisely fits the definition that marxists use: they violently force their will (to survive and to defend the anarchist project) on to another class (usually fascist capitalists).
And the mediation of scarcity in a market society is still capitalism, regardless of how many linguistically inconvenient opponents you liquidate.
We seek material conditions compatible with the elimination of state hierarchy. Until then we seek harm reduction, and political outcomes which approach those conditions. Not trading one oppressor for another.
Sounds like you seek to be compatible with capitalist oppression while you wait for something that will never simply arise on it’s own without a fierce revolutionary struggle. I’m sure the material conditions will be right any decade now. Surely before the climate catastrophe becomes unbearable or the imperialist war machine steamrolls us all.