I think one of the biggest mistakes we have made as an industry is conflating the words “AI” and “LLMs.” The irony is right there on the surface. Naming is one of the hardest things to do in software, and we’ve done it poorly for the primary tool of software.

  • staircase@programming.dev
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    3 months ago

    You have to start from physics & chemistry

    This is the view of scientific materialism. Scientific materialism - a view - comes into irreconcilable (I think) problems even within quantum physics, never mind philosophy. It is also a view that you have to start from the small and build up. This view also has problems.

    Thank you for bringing my attention to these books. I notice that the first two reviews on goodreads for “I am a strange loop” go to lengths to disagree with the message. Indeed one reviewer says

    I did not find that Hofstadter compellingly demonstrates that this strange loop is the entirety of consciousness

    I won’t put more weight on a reviewer than an author, but I do find the reviews interesting.

    I have not yet looked up Blackmore’s book.

    I am also not claiming we do not pattern match. I am saying there is very compelling literature that says we do more.

    But maybe I’m entirely wrong.

    • Corbin@programming.dev
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      3 months ago

      Materialism and QM have no conflict. What QM shows, via the KS theorem, is that reality cannot be objective; it must be contextual, arising from the participatory interactions between objects and subjects. Carroll 2021 is a fairly hard metaphysical barrier which prevents spurious anti-materialist claims by fully shifting the burden of proof to claimants; if you genuinely think that there are irreconcilable problems with materialism then you must give a physics experiment which violates the Standard Model.

      The reviewers for Hofstadter don’t understand the book, which I have on my shelf and highly recommend. The point of Strange Loop is that the caged-bird metaphor, that there is exactly one mind per one brain, is wrong in both directions: sometimes there’s more than one mind in a brain, and sometimes a mind is not wholly contained in a single brain. The only reason to skip Strange Loop is if you’re a computer scientist or mathematician, in which case you should definitely read GEB first and Strange Loop second.

      • staircase@programming.dev
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        3 months ago

        Thank you for the Carroll paper. I’m actually looking for stuff like that atm.

        In the paper, he caveats

        Everything we have said presumes from the start that the world is ultimately physical, consisting of some kind of physical stuff obeying physical laws. There is a long tradition of presuming otherwise, and if so, all bets are off. The well-known issue is then how non-physical substances or properties could interact with the physical stuff.

        so I’m very unclear how this paper can present a hard anti-materialist barrier, when he makes it clear that the paper presumes physicalism. I’ve only read half of it so far, will continue …

        • Corbin@programming.dev
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          3 months ago

          Well, the burden of proof doesn’t lie with Carroll. Instead, the entire point is that the non-materialist has the burden of evidence:

          Given a quantum state of the relevant fields, it accurately predicts how that state will evolve. Skeptics of the claim defended here have the burden of specifying precisely how that equation is to be modified. This would necessarily raise a host of tricky issues, such as conservation of energy and unitary evolution of the wave function.

          Otherwise I can rely upon Newton’s flaming laser sword; every time you ask about the possibility of non-materialism, I can ask you for the corresponding experiment which opens that possibility. Note that sometimes this is scientifically fruitful, as in the discovery of infrasound leading to many debunkings of hauntings as well as unlocking the secrets of elephant communication. (The more radical position of anti-materialism was conclusively refuted during the colonial era, so we cannot assume that the material world is only hypothetical.)

          This is all made stark in Figure 4, p15, which shows that any possible physical force not in the Standard Model would be so weak and subtle as to be undetectable by humans; when a human claims that they are sensitive to such a force, they have incorrectly implicitly assumed that their body is physically capable of interacting with such a force in a perceptible way. The argument goes much like the argument against electrosensitivity: if you really could sense the weak experimental force then you would be constantly sensing the much stronger ambient forces from the outside environment which we can’t mute.

          A common retort is that quantum states are merely our epistemic knowledge as humans about a fundamentally-unknowable micro-reality below our scale of perception. However, the PBR theorem rules that out by insisting that the quantum wavefunction is ontic. Leifer spent about two years struggling against this result in vain and eventually published Leifer 2014, which both serves as a great overview of the no-go theorems in ontological models and also as an example of how difficult it can be to unlearn previously-accepted beliefs.

          • bunchberry@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            A common retort is that quantum states are merely our epistemic knowledge as humans about a fundamentally-unknowable micro-reality below our scale of perception. However, the PBR theorem rules that out by insisting that the quantum wavefunction is ontic.

            The PBR theorem assumes preparation independence which is a local assumption.

            • staircase@programming.dev
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              3 months ago

              The PBR theorem assumes preparation independence which is a local assumption.

              Very interesting. Anywhere I can read more on that? Or is it standard knowledge in QM foundations?

              • bunchberry@lemmy.world
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                3 months ago

                The PBR theorem argues that if the quantum state is purely epistemic, then different preparation procedures can correspond to overlapping probability distributions over underlying states, which creates ambiguity about which preparation was used based only on observed statistics. In contrast, if the quantum state is ontic, distinct quantum states correspond to non-overlapping distributions, so in principle one can always infer the preparation given sufficient data. The theorem shows that any model with such overlap cannot reproduce all quantum predictions, and therefore concludes that the quantum state must be ontic.

                However, this conclusion relies on the assumption of preparation independence, meaning that independently prepared systems have independent underlying states. If this assumption is relaxed and underlying states can depend on the joint preparation context, then overlap need not occur even in models that are otherwise epistemic. See this paper for example: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1811.01107. In this sense, such models may still be called psi-ontic under PBR’s definition, since distinct wavefunctions correspond to distinct underlying states, but the distinction reflects differences in preparation conditions rather than the existence of distinct physical wave-like entities.

                Related work has pointed out that PBR’s criterion can classify intuitively epistemic models as ontic when preparation independence is violated, as discussed in this paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2109.02676v2. Other results show more explicitly that by dropping this assumption, one can construct models consistent with quantum mechanics in which different quantum states correspond to the same underlying reality, allowing genuine overlap, as in this paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1201.6554.

                You should check out this lecture: https://pirsa.org/12050021

              • Corbin@programming.dev
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                3 months ago

                Sibling comment is great for PBR. For KS, unfortunately most schools have a blind spot around it. This is partially because KS directly implies the legendary Bell’s theorem, which is experimentally testable and has allowed folks to prolong their grief over objective reality by bargaining with those experiments rather than doing maths; teaching Bell’s theorem is less of a headache while still breaking classical assumptions. It’s also partially because KS is not well-understood as a matter of folklore. I would say that maybe nLab’s page on KS states the important part, but they still hedge by using lots of formal language. Here’s an informal consequence of KS:

                Given. We exist in three spatial dimensions.

                Given. Photons of the Standard Model have spin 1.

                Corollary (QM is indefinite). The spin of a photon isn’t definite prior to measurement.

                This leads to the infamous Kochen-Conway theorem, better known as the “free will” theorem: if humans have free will then photons have free will. Kochen has been insistent that this family of results is solid and wants his peers to pay attention; he releases a position paper every few years on the topic, e.g. Kochen 2017 or Kochen 2022.

          • staircase@programming.dev
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            3 months ago

            Well, the burden of proof doesn’t lie with Carroll. Instead, the entire point is that the non-materialist has the burden of evidence

            How does the burden lie with the reader, rather than the author who has explicitly stated they are assuming physicalism. Why must we assume physicalism?

            every time you ask about the possibility of non-materialism, I can ask you for the corresponding experiment which opens that possibility

            You’re welcome to ask, but not all truths are experimentally verifiable. I read Newton’s flaming laser sword to mean that only science or logic can reveal truths, which isn’t at all the case.

            I’ve enjoyed discussing this with you - you’ve been clear, and added some interesting references. I’m not sure this medium really lends itself to in-depth discussion. I think we both need more space to understand where the other is coming from, and I don’t see us progressing in that direction.

        • Corbin@programming.dev
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          3 months ago

          By the way, I really hope that you consider synthesizing concepts. As an exercise, Carroll concludes from his premises that:

          There is no life after death, as the information in a person’s mind is encoded in the physical configuration of atoms in their body, and there is no physical mechanism for that information to be carried away after death.

          But consider the following quote from Strange Loop at the end of Chapter 18, “The Blurry Glow of Human Identity”. Remember, Hofstadter is a physicist, arguably as influential as Carroll in quantum theory, and no less of an anti-dualist or materialist. So, as an exercise, synthesize for yourself an understanding of why Hofstadter says:

          In the wake of a human being’s death, what survives is a set of afterglows, some brighter and some dimmer, in the collective brains of all those who were dearest to them. And when those people in turn pass on, the afterglow becomes extremely faint. And when that outer layer in turn passes into oblivion, then the afterglow is feebler still, and after a while there is nothing left. This slow process of extinction I’ve just described, though gloomy, is a little less gloomy than the standard view. Because bodily death is so clear, so sharp, and so dramatic, and because we tend to cling to the caged-bird view, death strikes us as instantaneous and absolute, as sharp as a guillotine blade. Our instinct is to believe that the light has all at once gone out altogether. I suggest that this is not the case for human souls, because the essence of a human being — truly unlike the essence of a mosquito or a snake or a bird or a pig — is distributed over many a brain. It takes a couple of generations for a soul to subside, for the flickering to cease, for all the embers to burn out. Although “ashes to ashes, dust to dust” may in the end be true, the transition it describes is not so sharp as we tend to think.

          • staircase@programming.dev
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            3 months ago

            By synthesizing concepts, do you mean combining them? I hope you’re not suggesting what that sounds like.

            I will return to Carroll’s paper, but I still don’t see how it can prove anything, due to the paragraph I quoted.