Wanting to enjoy animal products and a great deal of the types of food ever made by humans does not inherently necessitate animal exploitation, and therefore isnt necessarily cognitive dissonance.
Factory farms and legitimate animal abuses are horrific, but the vast majority of human relationships to animals and animal products in history has not been anything like that. I dont take issue with actual husbandry or hunting, its the circle of life.
One of the great failures of activism in this area is that vegans conflate horrific animal abuses like factory farms with any form of eating animal products, which most people would not agree with, and it makes it easy for people to write off any activism to close factory farms and things like that as just “crazy vegans” or whatever.
I would love to see lab grown meat and other things that mean we could move beyond killing animals for consumptive purposes, and eventually we will. In the meantime, we can have ethical farming practices that ensure quality lives for animals that will be eaten. There is no cognitive dissonance in that. I dont think the majority of people believe there is an ethical issue with eating animals at large, just that there are unethical ways to raise animals to be eaten
Beyond that, there are plenty of animal products that vegans refuse to eat even though taking them doest harm the animal or cost its life. Eggs, dairy or butter, etc.
How do you eat the body of someone who doesn’t want to be eaten and think it isn’t exploitation. Do YOU even listen to the words you are saying, or are you just distracting yourself from rational thought until the bad feelings go away?
We can tell you’ve never thought seriously about the subject in your entire life because you make claims like eggs and dairy don’t harm the animals producing them. That’s so ignorant, you have to be going out of your way to avoid learning about where your food comes from. But you have paragraphs of arrogant shit to shovel down our throats. Read a fucking book, okay?
There’s a massive difference between industry-scale production and free-range, small-scale production. The former can never be ethical, by definition. The latter: absolutely can. It requires humans to cut down on animal products consumption drastically, so campaigning and education is necessary, but equating ALL non-veganism with animal cruelty does more harm than good to that goal.
what in your mind makes it ethical to do the things to a chicken that would not be ethical to do to a human? you can’t just say “it’s ethical;” that is the entire debate.
“The animals we bred to be genetic freaks are so deformed they will no longer survive in the wild so we should continue breeding the genetic freaks.” Amen brother.
Free range, small-scale “production” (disgusting word to use in this context imho) - why would this be any less exploitative than what animal AG is doing in the billions? Sure, the animal is treated better, which is good in a vacuum, but the animal still can neither consent nor object to being exploited. At best, it’s a chicken laying eggs for reproduction or for its own sustenance and is robbed of these, at worst it’s a cow that’s being force-impregnated to give milk, to sustain its calves which it can’t, or it’s killed for meat. The end result is, whatever way you wanna spin it, a dead or exploited animal.
All these hypotheticals of people having “small-scale productions” or, for some reason not being part of the larger issue at hand just because they raise their own animals, is ultimately just cope to justify cruelty and exploitation. Accept that fact and move on, but at least be aware of what you’re doing, or change something about your perspective.
Veganism explicitly mentions to reduce the exploitation of animals in all facets of life, more or less. If you’re dependent on animal products because you’re living isolated and have no access to other nourishment - sure. I doubt the average Lemmy user is in such a predicament, however. Thus, it’s absolutely within the realm of reason to assume that living as a vegan is possible and should be strived towards - especially if you’re a self-proclaimed leftist.
Ah, I misunderstood your intentions. I thought you were against the extermination of all farm animals, who have no way of surviving outside of, you know, farms.
Apply this logic to human slaves producing transplant organs. If we didn’t create them, then they’d never exist; so we are actually doing them a favour by creating them and forcing them to serve us.
It’s just cope after cope after cope. I’ve been there. They are all trying to lead you away from the same place, but that’s the place you have to go if you want to be a person who does not commit cruelty and violence against vulnerable individuals.
Not so much “exterminating” but more so liberating. Get rid of farm animals but set them free to farms to just chill and live their lives. I’m not sure if this concept exists outside Germany, probably, but we have so-called “Lebenshofe” here - literally translated to “life farm” where former farm animals are rescued to and can find shelter and love. That’s the ideal 💚
Beyond that, there are plenty of animal products that vegans refuse to eat even though taking them doest harm the animal or cost its life. Eggs, dairy or butter, etc.
You should do some research on what industrial scale dairy and egg farms are like. It’s not much better, and in some cases worse.
Common practices include:
Throwing live freshly born male chicks into blenders
Chickens being confined, thousands at a time, in small dark spaces where they spend all their lives. Often dying to wounds from fighting each other due to being kept in such unnaturally close proximity
Due to a variety of tactics to maximize eggs per chicken, they often deplete their calcium, meaning they break their bones when attempting to stand
Dairy cows often spend most of their ‘useful’ lives (4-5 years) in concrete boxes barely larger than their own bodies, head pointed to food, and grates behind where waste can flow
The calves taken from dairy cows (necessary for them to begin lactation) end up in the same meat industry if male
Dairy cows, once out of their prime, end up in the same meat industry
OP addresses it by simply saying it’s not exploitation and the animals are not harmed. Both things are false. OP has nothing further to say to sustain that view. So what the fuck more are we supposed to have read?
OP addresses it by simply saying it’s not exploitation and the animals are not harmed.
In some cases.
Both things are false
In the cases OP isn’t talking about.
So what the fuck more are we supposed to have read?
Everything the other guy listed is the standard industry-scale production. What you should’ve read is that there are alternatives that ensure the animals are happy and taken care of.
It is a fallacy to say there are alternatives that ensure the animals are happy and taken care of. That is simply not true from an ethical point of view, which isn’t really concerned with your subjective measure of another individual’s “happiness.”
There is no ethical way to create an individual with the preformed intention of forcing that individual into a state of life-long dependence, where you are its only means of survival. That on its face is already profoundly unethical, it’s a truly monstrous and selfish thing to do to another individual.
The animals we create are morally equivalent to our own children. They are entitled to the exact same unconditional love and protection.
There is no ethical way to create an individual with the preformed intention of forcing that individual into a state of life-long dependence, where you are its only means of survival. That on its face is already profoundly unethical, it’s a truly monstrous and selfish thing to do to another individual.
By that logic, having a pet dog is somehow deeply unethical, and the fact that humanity created dogs from wolves over tens of thousands of years is an abomination
Does that actually make sense? I would say no, I dont believe pet dogs suffer through their existence if they are well treated and cared for. I dont think having a dog is unethical, even though I have never had one
Wanting to enjoy animal products and a great deal of the types of food ever made by humans does not inherently necessitate animal exploitation, and therefore isnt necessarily cognitive dissonance.
Factory farms and legitimate animal abuses are horrific, but the vast majority of human relationships to animals and animal products in history has not been anything like that. I dont take issue with actual husbandry or hunting, its the circle of life.
One of the great failures of activism in this area is that vegans conflate horrific animal abuses like factory farms with any form of eating animal products, which most people would not agree with, and it makes it easy for people to write off any activism to close factory farms and things like that as just “crazy vegans” or whatever.
I would love to see lab grown meat and other things that mean we could move beyond killing animals for consumptive purposes, and eventually we will. In the meantime, we can have ethical farming practices that ensure quality lives for animals that will be eaten. There is no cognitive dissonance in that. I dont think the majority of people believe there is an ethical issue with eating animals at large, just that there are unethical ways to raise animals to be eaten
Beyond that, there are plenty of animal products that vegans refuse to eat even though taking them doest harm the animal or cost its life. Eggs, dairy or butter, etc.
What in the cope did I just read
Well, clearly you didn’t read it, since you see it as cope…
How do you eat the body of someone who doesn’t want to be eaten and think it isn’t exploitation. Do YOU even listen to the words you are saying, or are you just distracting yourself from rational thought until the bad feelings go away?
We can tell you’ve never thought seriously about the subject in your entire life because you make claims like eggs and dairy don’t harm the animals producing them. That’s so ignorant, you have to be going out of your way to avoid learning about where your food comes from. But you have paragraphs of arrogant shit to shovel down our throats. Read a fucking book, okay?
I take it you never heard about eggs or milk…?
Ah, no, you have! So why do you only and specifically associate “non-veganism” with “eating the body of someone who doesn’t want to be eaten”?
Let me guess: your argument is the cage-locked, industry scale production, yeah?
Are you capable of taking a deep breath and not spazzing out here, or is that out of the question and we won’t have a conversation?
to be fair, the person that responded to me isn’t the same that wrote the initial response I responded to (???) but I share your sentiment wholly
There’s a massive difference between industry-scale production and free-range, small-scale production. The former can never be ethical, by definition. The latter: absolutely can. It requires humans to cut down on animal products consumption drastically, so campaigning and education is necessary, but equating ALL non-veganism with animal cruelty does more harm than good to that goal.
what in your mind makes it ethical to do the things to a chicken that would not be ethical to do to a human? you can’t just say “it’s ethical;” that is the entire debate.
Ah, OK, I misunderstood you. I didn’t realise you’re a proponent of exterminating all the farm animals.
Because, if they’re not used on farms, they have no way of surviving in the wild. Not to mention there either not being “enough wild” for all of them.
“The animals we bred to be genetic freaks are so deformed they will no longer survive in the wild so we should continue breeding the genetic freaks.” Amen brother.
Free range, small-scale “production” (disgusting word to use in this context imho) - why would this be any less exploitative than what animal AG is doing in the billions? Sure, the animal is treated better, which is good in a vacuum, but the animal still can neither consent nor object to being exploited. At best, it’s a chicken laying eggs for reproduction or for its own sustenance and is robbed of these, at worst it’s a cow that’s being force-impregnated to give milk, to sustain its calves which it can’t, or it’s killed for meat. The end result is, whatever way you wanna spin it, a dead or exploited animal.
All these hypotheticals of people having “small-scale productions” or, for some reason not being part of the larger issue at hand just because they raise their own animals, is ultimately just cope to justify cruelty and exploitation. Accept that fact and move on, but at least be aware of what you’re doing, or change something about your perspective.
Veganism explicitly mentions to reduce the exploitation of animals in all facets of life, more or less. If you’re dependent on animal products because you’re living isolated and have no access to other nourishment - sure. I doubt the average Lemmy user is in such a predicament, however. Thus, it’s absolutely within the realm of reason to assume that living as a vegan is possible and should be strived towards - especially if you’re a self-proclaimed leftist.
Ah, I misunderstood your intentions. I thought you were against the extermination of all farm animals, who have no way of surviving outside of, you know, farms.
Apply this logic to human slaves producing transplant organs. If we didn’t create them, then they’d never exist; so we are actually doing them a favour by creating them and forcing them to serve us.
It’s just cope after cope after cope. I’ve been there. They are all trying to lead you away from the same place, but that’s the place you have to go if you want to be a person who does not commit cruelty and violence against vulnerable individuals.
Not so much “exterminating” but more so liberating. Get rid of farm animals but set them free to farms to just chill and live their lives. I’m not sure if this concept exists outside Germany, probably, but we have so-called “Lebenshofe” here - literally translated to “life farm” where former farm animals are rescued to and can find shelter and love. That’s the ideal 💚
eggs and dairy dont harm animals because the animals want to produce eggs and dairy and have been designed to do so
How do you know that cows do not want to be eaten?
You should do some research on what industrial scale dairy and egg farms are like. It’s not much better, and in some cases worse.
Common practices include:
Throwing live freshly born male chicks into blenders
Chickens being confined, thousands at a time, in small dark spaces where they spend all their lives. Often dying to wounds from fighting each other due to being kept in such unnaturally close proximity
Due to a variety of tactics to maximize eggs per chicken, they often deplete their calcium, meaning they break their bones when attempting to stand
Dairy cows often spend most of their ‘useful’ lives (4-5 years) in concrete boxes barely larger than their own bodies, head pointed to food, and grates behind where waste can flow
The calves taken from dairy cows (necessary for them to begin lactation) end up in the same meat industry if male
Dairy cows, once out of their prime, end up in the same meat industry
I dont get my meat nor dairy nor eggs from factory farms shrimple as that
And you should maybe read the entire comment before responding? OP clearly addresses these issues…
OP addresses it by simply saying it’s not exploitation and the animals are not harmed. Both things are false. OP has nothing further to say to sustain that view. So what the fuck more are we supposed to have read?
In some cases.
In the cases OP isn’t talking about.
Everything the other guy listed is the standard industry-scale production. What you should’ve read is that there are alternatives that ensure the animals are happy and taken care of.
It is a fallacy to say there are alternatives that ensure the animals are happy and taken care of. That is simply not true from an ethical point of view, which isn’t really concerned with your subjective measure of another individual’s “happiness.”
There is no ethical way to create an individual with the preformed intention of forcing that individual into a state of life-long dependence, where you are its only means of survival. That on its face is already profoundly unethical, it’s a truly monstrous and selfish thing to do to another individual.
The animals we create are morally equivalent to our own children. They are entitled to the exact same unconditional love and protection.
By that logic, having a pet dog is somehow deeply unethical, and the fact that humanity created dogs from wolves over tens of thousands of years is an abomination
Does that actually make sense? I would say no, I dont believe pet dogs suffer through their existence if they are well treated and cared for. I dont think having a dog is unethical, even though I have never had one
Yup, see this response.