I mean I don’t think this is really wrong but it’s sort of obscuring the situation. Yes you can’t really blame the individual for societal problems, but you should still “expect” of them to not do so. For example I wouldn’t call someone evil if they had slaves in the 30s, but it’s still absolutely inexcusable to own another person. We can “expect” individual change while still recognizing the society at large is the main problem.
Any vegan who believes they don’t do massive harm just by existing is hugely misinformed, but this still feels like it’s obfuscating the situation. If I have the choice to not torture someone, it’s morally wrong for me to continue regardless of if I’m committing other harms. I should try to reduce the largest harms I can within my abilities. For most people this would be significantly reducing how much meat they eat, for vegans this would be canvassing and building community to try to reduce things like climate change. If someone isn’t vegan but helps their community and votes to reduce climate change etc, most (not insane) vegans would say this person is doing as much or more moral good as if they were vegan.
Pretty much fully agree with the rest of it, I’m not asking people to change their minds from some vegan berating them, but it is pretty exhausting having to use “kid gloves” on something most people would consider the greatest moral emergencies of our time, if they would diegn to look into it. A “haha gottem” like OP’s post from time to time helps me not freak out at people when they say “it’s just a diet choice” or “they were bred to be eaten, its just nature.”
Well I’m not going to nitpick each view of a single person, i’d love to continue our discussion, and I hope you’ll consider my points. I’ll consider yours.
Honestly I’m rooting for vegans, like if y’all seized state power and were like, “all right mfs here’s how you make curry” and sent all the “but bacon though” chuds to reeducation camps that are basically just giant cooking schools, publicly tried and executed the ceos of Monsanto, Tyson – comrade, I promise you, I would be right there with you. If you all really bring the fight, and some do, I know you could actually change things, at least some basic reforms or smthn.
I just wish vegans would take their own ethical standards seriously enough to not be absolutist, and to understand the actual causes of mass animal suffering. I am telling you, it is capitalism. I’m not even saying you have to become a socialist or whatever, you just have to resist capitalism as a part of the larger mission. I need vegans to get serious and get organized and fight for power to change things. If I had somewhere to devote my feistiness to veganism, maybe I still would be one.
And I’m sorry, but comparing slavery to animal agriculture is exactly what I was referring to in my first post above. I don’t mean this as a dunk, and I understand where you’re coming from, but it demonstrates a deeply misguided view on both chattel slavery and animal agriculture.
However I very much appreciate this discussion, and exchanging views. I really value compassion and defense of life over petty philosophizing. I hear many people, men especially, saying that empathy is obsolete and it just makes me so fucking sad. Some of my absolute favorite people are vegans. When I move back to the city in 2 years, I’ll go back to eating vegan. See if I can fix the damage to my body of having to live in rural midwest :(
I think it’s sort of a “don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater” situation," like “vote with your wallet” is stupid because that’s not the solution, but that doesn’t mean it’s useless. As an example sun chips tried recyclable paper packaging, but people complained it was too loud and they sold less, so they went back to plastic. Same thing with meat, if no one bought it no one would sell it. That is never happening, but that doesn’t mean one individual can’t still make a big difference with their choices.
It does feel pretty bad fighting for that though, because now I’m fighting my neighbor for eating his favorite breakfast instead of the machine that made it so immoral. I see veganism the same as leftism, you make changes in your life where you can to help, but the most important is get organized, get people talking, and get people voting and working for actual change.
I mean if like some vegans you believe animals have equal or at least similar worth to humans (I’m a bit of the latter), then as it stands we are subjugating and torturing them every day on a scale 100x that of slavery. It is literally slavery + worse living conditions than most slaves had + torture + death, which is why I don’t see it as a far fetched comparison.
Hey don’t knock philosophising till you try it, sometimes it leads nowhere but sometimes you learn a lot from it :P
I mean I don’t think this is really wrong but it’s sort of obscuring the situation. Yes you can’t really blame the individual for societal problems, but you should still “expect” of them to not do so. For example I wouldn’t call someone evil if they had slaves in the 30s, but it’s still absolutely inexcusable to own another person. We can “expect” individual change while still recognizing the society at large is the main problem.
Any vegan who believes they don’t do massive harm just by existing is hugely misinformed, but this still feels like it’s obfuscating the situation. If I have the choice to not torture someone, it’s morally wrong for me to continue regardless of if I’m committing other harms. I should try to reduce the largest harms I can within my abilities. For most people this would be significantly reducing how much meat they eat, for vegans this would be canvassing and building community to try to reduce things like climate change. If someone isn’t vegan but helps their community and votes to reduce climate change etc, most (not insane) vegans would say this person is doing as much or more moral good as if they were vegan.
Pretty much fully agree with the rest of it, I’m not asking people to change their minds from some vegan berating them, but it is pretty exhausting having to use “kid gloves” on something most people would consider the greatest moral emergencies of our time, if they would diegn to look into it. A “haha gottem” like OP’s post from time to time helps me not freak out at people when they say “it’s just a diet choice” or “they were bred to be eaten, its just nature.”
Well I’m not going to nitpick each view of a single person, i’d love to continue our discussion, and I hope you’ll consider my points. I’ll consider yours.
Honestly I’m rooting for vegans, like if y’all seized state power and were like, “all right mfs here’s how you make curry” and sent all the “but bacon though” chuds to reeducation camps that are basically just giant cooking schools, publicly tried and executed the ceos of Monsanto, Tyson – comrade, I promise you, I would be right there with you. If you all really bring the fight, and some do, I know you could actually change things, at least some basic reforms or smthn.
I just wish vegans would take their own ethical standards seriously enough to not be absolutist, and to understand the actual causes of mass animal suffering. I am telling you, it is capitalism. I’m not even saying you have to become a socialist or whatever, you just have to resist capitalism as a part of the larger mission. I need vegans to get serious and get organized and fight for power to change things. If I had somewhere to devote my feistiness to veganism, maybe I still would be one.
And I’m sorry, but comparing slavery to animal agriculture is exactly what I was referring to in my first post above. I don’t mean this as a dunk, and I understand where you’re coming from, but it demonstrates a deeply misguided view on both chattel slavery and animal agriculture.
However I very much appreciate this discussion, and exchanging views. I really value compassion and defense of life over petty philosophizing. I hear many people, men especially, saying that empathy is obsolete and it just makes me so fucking sad. Some of my absolute favorite people are vegans. When I move back to the city in 2 years, I’ll go back to eating vegan. See if I can fix the damage to my body of having to live in rural midwest :(
I think it’s sort of a “don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater” situation," like “vote with your wallet” is stupid because that’s not the solution, but that doesn’t mean it’s useless. As an example sun chips tried recyclable paper packaging, but people complained it was too loud and they sold less, so they went back to plastic. Same thing with meat, if no one bought it no one would sell it. That is never happening, but that doesn’t mean one individual can’t still make a big difference with their choices.
It does feel pretty bad fighting for that though, because now I’m fighting my neighbor for eating his favorite breakfast instead of the machine that made it so immoral. I see veganism the same as leftism, you make changes in your life where you can to help, but the most important is get organized, get people talking, and get people voting and working for actual change.
I mean if like some vegans you believe animals have equal or at least similar worth to humans (I’m a bit of the latter), then as it stands we are subjugating and torturing them every day on a scale 100x that of slavery. It is literally slavery + worse living conditions than most slaves had + torture + death, which is why I don’t see it as a far fetched comparison.
Hey don’t knock philosophising till you try it, sometimes it leads nowhere but sometimes you learn a lot from it :P