Oh yeah, I mean, religion is everywhere, including in those governments. But the Mormon church quite literally is the government in Utah. The vast majority of the state government are temple-recommend card carrying members of the church, and also went on missions. These aren’t just practicing christians, most of them are bishops or high ranking members of the church.
I think that it’s a difficult thing to understand from the outside, but if you lived there for more than a year, you’d definitely understand what I mean. Utah is a huge bubble. They turn their noses up at anyone perceived as an outsider (in practice, this meant “not Mormon”), including Atheists, people who were agnostic, Christians, Catholics, and people practicing Judaism. The way this was done was very insidious as well, because to your face, they’d be all nice, but then you’d hear their disapproval and judgement through the grapevine.
Anyway, I’m rambling/venting now, but my point is that Utah is about as close as you can get to a fully theocratic state in the US, it’s much closer to something like the Vatican than anywhere else that I’ve lived or visited. Idaho is the way it is because of Utah - it has an extremely high Mormon population as well.
But the Mormon church quite literally is the government in Utah.
And the Southern Baptist Convention run Arkansas, Alabama, and Mississippi. Meanwhile, Opus Dei Catholics have their hooks deep into Missouri and Louisiana. Churches are a common way to organize a political vanguard in order to manage an ostensibly democratic institution. The Mormons have a ton of influence in neighboring Arizona, Nevada, California, and across the border in Sonora, Mexico.
Utah is a huge bubble.
I grew up in a town outside of Houston, Texas called Sugar Land. We also used to jokingly refer to it as “The Bubble”, as it was a Planned Community that resulted from a collaboration of the O&G industry, the D.R. Horton Home Builders, and the Sugar Creek Baptist Church under Tom DeLay. Then the Catholic Church moved in and blew the whole thing up by flooding the district with the perfidious Irish and the nefarious Taiwanese.
But yes, being one of half a dozen Jewish kids in a sea of Southerners was certainly an experience.
my point is that Utah is about as close as you can get to a fully theocratic state in the US
US Theocracies are more common than you’d first guess. Louisiana is fully co-opted by southern Catholics. Check out the Veiled Prophet Society in St. Louis (half a zillion podcasts on the subject). Texas has its share of outright cult towns, the Branch Davidians being an iconic but hardly idiosyncratic example. And then you’ve got the various Black Baptist church tentpole institutions from Harlem to Oakland (marginally less toxic than the whites, but no less influential nor dogmatic).
The fastest way to get a large number of people to vote for you is to appeal to a member of the clergy. So quite a bit of US democratic power springs from a comparatively small but vocal set of religious hubs.
I am in no way denying that other states do similar things. I am saying that Utah is a completely different animal than those states. It was founded, incorporated, built, and run by Mormons the entire time (there used to even be a Mormon army), with a super majority of residents themselves being Mormon, all while the Mormon church is one of the richest religious organizations in the county. They’re literally one of the biggest private land owners in the country as well. They are rich and by far the most powerful organization in Utah and Idaho.
Again, I do genuinely believe that you’d have to live there (and thus deal with the Utah government) to understand what I mean. It is not the same as the south. There aren’t just cult towns like you describe, that is literally the whole state. Even relatively blue areas such as SLC suffer from the control and oversight of the church.
I am saying that Utah is a completely different animal than those states.
It’s insular because it’s Mormons giving the reach around to other Mormons. But you see the same social dynamic replicated in other religious groups in other states. You just don’t see the bright dividing lines, because the religious organizations transcend state boundaries in other areas of the country. There’s not some hard stop between the Kansas and Missouri state lines, where being a Southern Baptist begins and ends.
Again, I do genuinely believe that you’d have to live there (and thus deal with the Utah government) to understand what I mean.
I’ve lived a number of places, some of them very deeply religious and others much more plural. I can’t speak to Utah specifically, but I can speak to a few places that were functionally operating as Jonestown minus the kool-aid. If you give the history of these states a hard look, you can see the same patterns and the same social structures. “First Colony” got its name for a reason, and it echoes through the community in a way you wouldn’t understand unless you lived there.
That is a tiny, zoomed in silver of roughly three and a half x two Utah blocks (yes, even the block system is different because of the Mormon grid) picked at random in the Utah valley. That is NINE separate LDS churches in that image, all within a 2 minute or less drive of each other.
There is no such thing as an “independent” Mormon church, either, like the religions you are talking about. These all have members paying 10% tithes which goes to the church leadership as a whole. They are wards and individual churches under the same exact umbrella. Go to any place in the valley, and you’ll find even more. Where I grew up, there were four LDS churches within a 5 minute walk of my house. No joke.
This is why Mormonism is completely different than any of the other religions you have mentioned. They are a full blown corporation, and there are no independent churches. Zero.
That is NINE separate LDS churches in that image, all within a 2 minute or less drive of each other.
Harris County has 3,031 churches in total, giving a church-to-population ratio of about 1:1,350. Salt Lake City is closer to 1:700. I suppose you could big-dick me and insist that Utah has more. But at some point, we’re just arguing a matter of degrees.
Indianapolis, Indiana comes in at 2,892 churches with a population of 830k, giving it 1:289. Here’s a street in Tuxedo park with five churches in walking distance that I found just googling around.
There is no such thing as an “independent” Mormon church, either, like the religions you are talking about.
No. The Mormons are much more like the Catholics in that regard. Abet, more in the style of an MLM than a horizontal monopoly. The proliferation of Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, and other denominational churches in Texas is much more free-lance. Throwing down churches like we throw down oil wells.
This is why Mormonism is completely different
It’s a variation on a very well-established theme.
I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree here. I lived in Utah for multiple decades, and the bubble also goes both ways. If you can’t experience it for yourself, you will not understand.
Using SLC to compare is also not ideal. SLC is the least Mormon part of Utah. You should be comparing entire states, not just the cities. You should also be comparing the actual religion, and not just blanketing all of them into one. Apples to apples.
Utah has at least 5,229 LDS churches, and 24 temples (which are reserved only for the members with temple recommends). Not counting those temples, Utah has roughly 1 church for every 652 people. Not everyone is Mormon, the vast majority are though. If we only count church members, this goes to 1:411 chruches. This is all state wide. No individual cities. All one religious organization.
Oh yeah, I mean, religion is everywhere, including in those governments. But the Mormon church quite literally is the government in Utah. The vast majority of the state government are temple-recommend card carrying members of the church, and also went on missions. These aren’t just practicing christians, most of them are bishops or high ranking members of the church.
I think that it’s a difficult thing to understand from the outside, but if you lived there for more than a year, you’d definitely understand what I mean. Utah is a huge bubble. They turn their noses up at anyone perceived as an outsider (in practice, this meant “not Mormon”), including Atheists, people who were agnostic, Christians, Catholics, and people practicing Judaism. The way this was done was very insidious as well, because to your face, they’d be all nice, but then you’d hear their disapproval and judgement through the grapevine.
Anyway, I’m rambling/venting now, but my point is that Utah is about as close as you can get to a fully theocratic state in the US, it’s much closer to something like the Vatican than anywhere else that I’ve lived or visited. Idaho is the way it is because of Utah - it has an extremely high Mormon population as well.
And the Southern Baptist Convention run Arkansas, Alabama, and Mississippi. Meanwhile, Opus Dei Catholics have their hooks deep into Missouri and Louisiana. Churches are a common way to organize a political vanguard in order to manage an ostensibly democratic institution. The Mormons have a ton of influence in neighboring Arizona, Nevada, California, and across the border in Sonora, Mexico.
I grew up in a town outside of Houston, Texas called Sugar Land. We also used to jokingly refer to it as “The Bubble”, as it was a Planned Community that resulted from a collaboration of the O&G industry, the D.R. Horton Home Builders, and the Sugar Creek Baptist Church under Tom DeLay. Then the Catholic Church moved in and blew the whole thing up by flooding the district with the perfidious Irish and the nefarious Taiwanese.
But yes, being one of half a dozen Jewish kids in a sea of Southerners was certainly an experience.
US Theocracies are more common than you’d first guess. Louisiana is fully co-opted by southern Catholics. Check out the Veiled Prophet Society in St. Louis (half a zillion podcasts on the subject). Texas has its share of outright cult towns, the Branch Davidians being an iconic but hardly idiosyncratic example. And then you’ve got the various Black Baptist church tentpole institutions from Harlem to Oakland (marginally less toxic than the whites, but no less influential nor dogmatic).
The fastest way to get a large number of people to vote for you is to appeal to a member of the clergy. So quite a bit of US democratic power springs from a comparatively small but vocal set of religious hubs.
I am in no way denying that other states do similar things. I am saying that Utah is a completely different animal than those states. It was founded, incorporated, built, and run by Mormons the entire time (there used to even be a Mormon army), with a super majority of residents themselves being Mormon, all while the Mormon church is one of the richest religious organizations in the county. They’re literally one of the biggest private land owners in the country as well. They are rich and by far the most powerful organization in Utah and Idaho.
Again, I do genuinely believe that you’d have to live there (and thus deal with the Utah government) to understand what I mean. It is not the same as the south. There aren’t just cult towns like you describe, that is literally the whole state. Even relatively blue areas such as SLC suffer from the control and oversight of the church.
It’s insular because it’s Mormons giving the reach around to other Mormons. But you see the same social dynamic replicated in other religious groups in other states. You just don’t see the bright dividing lines, because the religious organizations transcend state boundaries in other areas of the country. There’s not some hard stop between the Kansas and Missouri state lines, where being a Southern Baptist begins and ends.
I’ve lived a number of places, some of them very deeply religious and others much more plural. I can’t speak to Utah specifically, but I can speak to a few places that were functionally operating as Jonestown minus the kool-aid. If you give the history of these states a hard look, you can see the same patterns and the same social structures. “First Colony” got its name for a reason, and it echoes through the community in a way you wouldn’t understand unless you lived there.
I’m not sure if this drives home part of my point, but take a look at this (if you click the link, you might have to click “search this area”):
https://www.google.com/maps/search/Church+Of+Jesus+Christ+Of+Latter-Day+Saints/@40.2957943,-111.7057408,15z
That is a tiny, zoomed in silver of roughly three and a half x two Utah blocks (yes, even the block system is different because of the Mormon grid) picked at random in the Utah valley. That is NINE separate LDS churches in that image, all within a 2 minute or less drive of each other.
There is no such thing as an “independent” Mormon church, either, like the religions you are talking about. These all have members paying 10% tithes which goes to the church leadership as a whole. They are wards and individual churches under the same exact umbrella. Go to any place in the valley, and you’ll find even more. Where I grew up, there were four LDS churches within a 5 minute walk of my house. No joke.
This is why Mormonism is completely different than any of the other religions you have mentioned. They are a full blown corporation, and there are no independent churches. Zero.
Harris County has 3,031 churches in total, giving a church-to-population ratio of about 1:1,350. Salt Lake City is closer to 1:700. I suppose you could big-dick me and insist that Utah has more. But at some point, we’re just arguing a matter of degrees.
Indianapolis, Indiana comes in at 2,892 churches with a population of 830k, giving it 1:289. Here’s a street in Tuxedo park with five churches in walking distance that I found just googling around.
No. The Mormons are much more like the Catholics in that regard. Abet, more in the style of an MLM than a horizontal monopoly. The proliferation of Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, and other denominational churches in Texas is much more free-lance. Throwing down churches like we throw down oil wells.
It’s a variation on a very well-established theme.
I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree here. I lived in Utah for multiple decades, and the bubble also goes both ways. If you can’t experience it for yourself, you will not understand.
Using SLC to compare is also not ideal. SLC is the least Mormon part of Utah. You should be comparing entire states, not just the cities. You should also be comparing the actual religion, and not just blanketing all of them into one. Apples to apples.
Utah has at least 5,229 LDS churches, and 24 temples (which are reserved only for the members with temple recommends). Not counting those temples, Utah has roughly 1 church for every 652 people. Not everyone is Mormon, the vast majority are though. If we only count church members, this goes to 1:411 chruches. This is all state wide. No individual cities. All one religious organization.