As if a democratically elected government representing people in a certain place should have no right to its own sovereignty
I mean, “democratically elected” does a lot of heavy lifting in countries that are choked out by fascist governance and fear-mongering media. “Sovereignty” also has a weird way of being used to weaponize self-determination into surveillance-state policing and xenophobic policy.
But then when it comes to countries that struggle to find work for their own people, they also get flooded by people from places where no government functions at all. Specifically Nigerians in South Africa and Ghana. Legally present, and subject to xenophobic attacks because there no hope for them in Nigeria because it’s a hot mess.
Why is it that a French citizen traveling to Germany or Spain is considered benign, but a Libyan citizen traveling to Germany or Spain is considered part of a “flood” that has some kind of existential threat to the locals? Why does Libya’s dogshit government get raised as a reason why this Libyan visitor can’t stay at my hotel or eat at my restaurant or work in my office?
Does being born in Country A stain someone’s soul in a way that makes them incompatible with Country B?
how is it supposed to work without literally magic being involved?
You don’t need magic to not have borders. If anything, you need a certain degree of magic to rigidly enforce borders. You need mass surveillance to track the identities of everyone entering and leaving your country. You need to engineer increasingly complex systems of identification, digital fingerprinting, financial controls, regulation on business and social activities, and prohibitions enforcement pursuant to a constantly shifting web of sanctions. You need an enormous body of labor to manage these rules and enforce them. You need prisons to hold all the trespassers. You sprawling bureaucracies to figure out who is “legal” and to change the legal status in a timely manner.
None of this shit works as intended. Legal residents routinely get harassed because records aren’t properly maintained and distributed. Illegal residents slip through blind spots in the system. Black market trade grows faster than the regulated trade, because there’s a larger profit margin in it. Legal business activity suffocates under the higher costs of compliance.
You ask how no-borders are supposed to work? I’d say, incredibly easily! Do nothing. Boom! You’ve achieved your goal.
I ask you how closed-borders are supposed to work? You’re going to spend several lifetimes and untold fortunes trying to achieve this fantasy.
I mean, “democratically elected” does a lot of heavy lifting in countries that are choked out by fascist governance and fear-mongering media. “Sovereignty” also has a weird way of being used to weaponize self-determination into surveillance-state policing and xenophobic policy.
Sure, but since we’re talking about hypothetical and fictional situations, I’m asking why a not real place that actually does democracy well and isn’t dragging a legacy of being shitty behind it allowed to manage its own affairs and territory under this “no borders” idea.
And you’re dodging the question I’ve asked, which is open borders in practice are a mess.
Why is it that a French citizen traveling to Germany or Spain is considered benign, but a Libyan citizen traveling to Germany or Spain is considered part of a “flood” that has some kind of existential threat to the locals? Why does Libya’s dogshit government get raised as a reason why this Libyan visitor can’t stay at my hotel or eat at my restaurant or work in my office?
Uhh… you do know the EU exists, right? Germany, Spain and France all have treaties in place under the EU and EEC that say they have freedom of movement, labor, and ownership of property among each other’s countries as EU citizens. People from Libya aren’t EU citizens, so laws granting transitive rights between EU member countries don’t include Libya or anyone from Libya as Libya isn’t part of the EU. If Libya joined the EU, then they would.
Plus, have you not seen recent complaints from Italians and Portuguese that they’re being overrun with other Europeans and Americans anyway? How many Brits learned the hard way what Brexit meant when they lost residency in Spain?
You also seem to forget that Europe used to have hard borders. French people used to need permission to go to Spain, and vice versa. Spanish farmers, some possibly still alive today, needed special letters to tend to fields in France back in the 1960s.
Does being born in Country A stain someone’s soul in a way that makes them incompatible with Country B?
Not at all, but why does someone being a human give them a right to go anywhere and do anything?
It also seems like no one has thought out the true dangers of economic imperialism with no borders or governments. Holy shit, you really trust social media and advertising to be left unchecked? A lot of peple would 100% move to the Wal-Mart corporate town and condos. That’s also exactly how you get things like the insane Broligarchy Network State stuff. Highly developed pockets of society that rampantly exert force on neighbors to extract resources. You know, like people used to do to each other during the era of early history and pre-history.
I mean, “democratically elected” does a lot of heavy lifting in countries that are choked out by fascist governance and fear-mongering media. “Sovereignty” also has a weird way of being used to weaponize self-determination into surveillance-state policing and xenophobic policy.
Why is it that a French citizen traveling to Germany or Spain is considered benign, but a Libyan citizen traveling to Germany or Spain is considered part of a “flood” that has some kind of existential threat to the locals? Why does Libya’s dogshit government get raised as a reason why this Libyan visitor can’t stay at my hotel or eat at my restaurant or work in my office?
Does being born in Country A stain someone’s soul in a way that makes them incompatible with Country B?
You don’t need magic to not have borders. If anything, you need a certain degree of magic to rigidly enforce borders. You need mass surveillance to track the identities of everyone entering and leaving your country. You need to engineer increasingly complex systems of identification, digital fingerprinting, financial controls, regulation on business and social activities, and prohibitions enforcement pursuant to a constantly shifting web of sanctions. You need an enormous body of labor to manage these rules and enforce them. You need prisons to hold all the trespassers. You sprawling bureaucracies to figure out who is “legal” and to change the legal status in a timely manner.
None of this shit works as intended. Legal residents routinely get harassed because records aren’t properly maintained and distributed. Illegal residents slip through blind spots in the system. Black market trade grows faster than the regulated trade, because there’s a larger profit margin in it. Legal business activity suffocates under the higher costs of compliance.
You ask how no-borders are supposed to work? I’d say, incredibly easily! Do nothing. Boom! You’ve achieved your goal.
I ask you how closed-borders are supposed to work? You’re going to spend several lifetimes and untold fortunes trying to achieve this fantasy.
Sure, but since we’re talking about hypothetical and fictional situations, I’m asking why a not real place that actually does democracy well and isn’t dragging a legacy of being shitty behind it allowed to manage its own affairs and territory under this “no borders” idea.
And you’re dodging the question I’ve asked, which is open borders in practice are a mess.
Uhh… you do know the EU exists, right? Germany, Spain and France all have treaties in place under the EU and EEC that say they have freedom of movement, labor, and ownership of property among each other’s countries as EU citizens. People from Libya aren’t EU citizens, so laws granting transitive rights between EU member countries don’t include Libya or anyone from Libya as Libya isn’t part of the EU. If Libya joined the EU, then they would.
Plus, have you not seen recent complaints from Italians and Portuguese that they’re being overrun with other Europeans and Americans anyway? How many Brits learned the hard way what Brexit meant when they lost residency in Spain?
You also seem to forget that Europe used to have hard borders. French people used to need permission to go to Spain, and vice versa. Spanish farmers, some possibly still alive today, needed special letters to tend to fields in France back in the 1960s.
Not at all, but why does someone being a human give them a right to go anywhere and do anything?
It also seems like no one has thought out the true dangers of economic imperialism with no borders or governments. Holy shit, you really trust social media and advertising to be left unchecked? A lot of peple would 100% move to the Wal-Mart corporate town and condos. That’s also exactly how you get things like the insane Broligarchy Network State stuff. Highly developed pockets of society that rampantly exert force on neighbors to extract resources. You know, like people used to do to each other during the era of early history and pre-history.