The sooner humanity is ripped from the teat of fossil fuels the better. Actions like this highlight the urgency.
Good
I’m not sure where you live, but I hope you understand the ramifications of less oil on the market. If you think inflation was bad in 2022 get ready for skyrocketing prices on everything soon.
Fuck the oil market bro, fuck the gas prices, make em ten dollars tomorrow.
I understand the sentiment. Maybe in 10 more years I would totally agree with you but not yet. We need cheap oil to transition to a better green future.
Agree with this. We still need oil for farming. Also current food logistics are inefficent and wasteful because it’s cheaper that way.
We waste 3/4 of the food we produce, supermarkets throw out half of what they stock, and people throw out half of what they bought and took home.
We are obese with resources, 40 million pavement princess pick up trucks that could be traded in for a commuter sedan, literally obese population etc etc etc.
We dont need more stuff, oil or otherwise. People who are underserved in our country are simply the victims of political choices.
I hope you understand the ramifications of less oil on the market.
here’s the ramifications of oil on the market
there’s a persisting myth that we can’t inconvenience ourselves and can just go right on ignoring the laws of physics.
You’re arguing the oil ON THE MARKET will cause the end of the human civilization and is a greater threat to us presently and I am arguing oil OFF THE MARKET will cause the end of civilization and is a greater threat to us presently.
I’ll give you my top 3 opinions on why OFF THE MARKET is a greater threat:
-Without Oil On The Market we will simply be unable to transition to other forms sustainable energy. This is because sustainable energy needs oil and money in order to be built. An oil shock will cause oil and therefore product supply chain disruption. It will also cause economies to collapse. Leading to money supply issues and less investment on sustainable projects.
-WOOTM we will not be able to maintain quality of life ACROSS THE ENTIRE WORLD. That means individuals already struggling will be pushed to the breaking point/death.
-China is demonstrating how important oil is by utilizing their petroleum reserves to literally KEEP THE WORLD ECONOMY AFLOAT. China understands that without oil there is no world economy and there is no sustainable energy transition. The economy is to be protected from a Marxist point of view! The idea being that if we do anything to hurt the economy we hurt the material conditions of the common man.
Now, in the long term we MUST transition off of oil and into sustainable energy. I agree with you that human civilization is in grave danger. However, the only way we survive the future is by utilizing oil to transition to sustainable energy as China is demonstrating.
I am not pro oil! I am in favor of utilizing it for a more sustainable future which is possible, hopefully!
Totally agree with you assertion that steady oil is still needed for a transition. That is if the transition will happen quick enough.
A couple things on China. They are not saying anything about what they are doing. Attributing them goodwill in this situation is misplaced. They are covering for the US President and preventing him from destabilizing the dollar.
China is indeed building a lot of solar which is good, but they are also building a lot of coal. If any country is currently pushing our planet to the brink, there is no question it is China.
I am increasingly suspicious of the US, China, and Russia relationship. It really feels like there is a unspoken alliance between the three superpowers. Everyone is helping everyone and it appears fascism reigns.
Hmm you may be right about China’s motives and a possible uneasy alliance between the 3. I would like to think that China thinks in long term consequences instead of short term gain that USA tends to display. However, we may never know what the true relationship there is.
As for the China’s reliance on coal; we must not forget this country is trying to provide an additional 1.4 billion people a middle class lifestyle. Who are we to deny them the material conditions many in the west enjoy? From what I understand coal is China’s response to the failings of renewable/sustainable energy.
Coal is still only 1% of Chinese energy grid(corrected by Doomsider below), they just need so much power and coal can be mined domestically. Unfortunately, modern human life may not be compatible with a healthy planet?I am far more hopeful of China than I am of the US. I would like to agree with you that China is engaging in long term thinking only because it is a counter balance to the epic short-sightedness that the US displays.
You bring up a good point of China’s population and the concept of them increasing the quality of life of so many people. It does make you wonder about the sustainability of large human populations.
I think you got your numbers crossed as it was a 1% reduction of coal usage not coal only making up 1% of their power grid. That would be extremely impressive. Here is an article that talks about their actual percentage of coal usage for power.
I have found several conflicting articles on this and this one is the most generous for China. It sets total energy produced by coal at just barely less than 50%. Coal is expected to continue to increase until 2030 according to Chinese planners although the total percentage may shrink if it continues to be outpaced by solar/wind/hydro.
Whoops that was a dumb mistake by me. Thanks for the correction and the discussion!
We did WFH during the pandemic and civilization didn’t end. People commuting to work represents a significant amount of oil usage.
The Middle East does not supply 100% of the oil in the world. It’s a large chunk to be sure, but there’s some simple measures we can do to make significant reductions in oil usage. We’ve done it before during the pandemic, and those policies weren’t actually focused on reducing oil consumption still but managed to cut oil consumption by ~20%.
The 20% oil consumption cut during the pandemic was not only from WFH policies. That included many people losing their jobs, remember the generous unemployment benefits during that time? WFH policies will help, but most people can’t WFH and they will be hurt by this if it comes to pass. We are still draining the SPR so time is ticking.
Sure it was rough, but it wasn’t exactly the end of civilization either. And remember that wasn’t policies meant to reduce oil consumption, that was just a side effect. What would happen if we actually put a similar amount of effort specifically targeted at reducing oil consumption?
Unlike the pandemic, we wouldn’t be avoiding public transit, we wouldn’t need to close restaurants and public gatherings. And we wouldn’t need to drop it by 20% in a day. Also unemployment wouldn’t be a problem if people were working on installing heat pumps, building EVs and solar and wind generation.
Nobody starved to death because of the pandemic, civilization didn’t end. It proved that a significant percentage of oil consumption is not required to provide necessities. So we know that we are heading towards a climate change catastrophe (which could end civilization) because we don’t want to give up burning oil as a luxury.
Well hold on, how much money did we pump into the economic system to keep it afloat? Do you remember the stimulus checks and the insane loans handed out that were forgiven? Let’s not pretend that 20% drop didn’t involve governments giving handouts to almost everyone.
That was a demand side shock, where a supply side shock of 20%, hell even 10% is a different beast. From my macroeconomics understanding the economy may need to contract relative to the oil supply that has been cut off. If USA loses 8% of oil, it’s economy may contract by just as much which would be a serious issue. Burning oil is not a luxury, it’s how everything in modern life exists and this is the inconvenient truth. Without it we don’t have heat pumps, EVs or even alternative energy sources.
Oh and please don’t think I’m being argumentative. I’m enjoying this dialogue and welcome feedback on my thinking. I do understand where you’re coming from and you do have good points. I think China has taken the lead building a sustainable energy society, and I think we should emulate it worldwide. The Chinese government is trying to prevent the present Oil shock to the best of their ability because they know that an economic contraction will hurt them and their future as much as any other country. This means even with all the sustainable energy projects China has, they are still dependent on a world where the oil flows.
Good luck sustaining 8 billion people without it.
I know! Hell, good luck having a “renewables” transition without it!
All of human history up to about the mid-19th century was based on renewable resources.
So true. We were one with the earth (except for the deforestation of vast swaths of lands)
That’s entirely renewable when it’s done with human labor. Renewable doesn’t mean “one with the earth” or whatever hippy-dippy thing you think.
Fossil fuels on the one hand allow deforestation on an unimaginable scale but also allow artificial accelerated regrowth with mechanization and fertilization.
Also, what “vast” swaths of land were deforested before coal power or oil power that threatened all of humanity or were not regrowing within a generation?
I am not selfish my life will never be worse than what we in the west inflicted on Iran, Palestine and the “third world countries”.
It will not happen to be to get my whole large family completely wiped out with the USA and it’s puppets
I’ll be sure to remind you of this comment in the upcoming famines, the ones you’ve admitted won’t affect you.
Lol I am celebrating the loss of the aggressor which put pressure on the agressor to end the war. You are blaming the american empire criminal actions on me.
Most of the current famine are made by american and the west allies
No I’m suggesting you have no idea what you’re celebrating, but don’t worry - I will make sure you know.
I am celebrating people right to defend themselves against agressors. Regardless of the outcome the aggressors will be responsible for it. You only care about yourself
Yeah sure man, whatever you need to tell yourself.
not trying to really take sides but I’m not sure he’ll read any comments here if he’s suffering from famine, and why would we still have internet and electricity but not food?
Because the propaganda must flow.
Not my point, my point is that these wars (specifically the ongoing wars in the middle east) are going to cause an energy crisis that will be felt in everything from energy to run homes to fertilizer for food.
This person doesn’t give a fuck about anyone but their petty grievances against anything affiliated with the West. I’m not a particular fan of the Saudis but there was always a better way than what’s happening now - to cheer for this is to cheer for the deaths of millions of people.
Life > prices
You say that now, but we’ll all be crying when we can’t afford basic necessities. We’re just used to cheap conveniences. Maybe you aren’t but my family and I am.
The title is inaccurate and overexaggerated . It is not remaining energy lifeline. This attack is similar to Ukraine attacks on Russian oil facilities
Wow, this guy is banned on every community he’s a part of. Maybe a bot?
This attack is similar to Ukraine attacks on Russian oil facilities
For Saudi Arabia, absolutely it is a similar scale of attack on infrastructure that degrades significantly but does not itself create a truly existential problem… but then you are ignoring the importance to the world, specifically shipping between countries, whether it is fuel or material… that the Red Sea occupies.
You also underestimate how narrow the Bab-el-mandeb is, we are talking about perhaps the most serious shipping chokepoint on earth after the construction of the Suez Canal connected the Red Sea to the Mediterranean.
