Yeah the US was using eagle and fasci symbolism long before fascism was a thing, because fascists and the founding fathers were both Romaboos. Also before anyone says the founding fathers were fascists id argue they weren’t simply because the fascism of their era was the absolute monarchies, they were assholes and hypocritical jackasses though.
Proto would imply that there’s a direct line between them and fascism but it’s more like a deranged series of foot paths that are just as likely to lead to anarchism. Reminder folks from John Brown to Ho Chi Minh had respect for the revolutionaries even with their own critiques, also as I noted there is a far more direct line from the institutions of feudalism and monarchy to fascism. But political ideology at the time was weird and hard to classify within taxonomy, for example the Utopians who were the proto-socialists explicitly were also pro-slavery because they couldn’t think of other ways for mass manufacturing.
There is a direct line, the US helped to fund, create, and embrace fascism. After the defeat of the Axis powers the US went on to spread fascism around the globe. This, in my opinion, is not really up for debate unless you are an apologist or someone who is in denial.
My point is moreso that while the modern US is at best fascist aligned at worst outright fascistic the first 50 years or so fall into the same category as Rome, the Carolingian empire, or Babylon wherein it was far enough in the past that our modern descriptions don’t quite work due to just how different the world was. For context it wasn’t until the latter half of those first 50 years that steam power starts to refine enough to be usable let alone viable.
I try to caution inflicting modernism unto the past and that includes describing ideologies and tendencies that at the time didn’t exist, because you get weirdness like how Julius Caesar was technically to the left of Mamdani when it came to food distribution and rent increases for context Caesar stopped the collection of rent outright and gave out free grain in quantities enough to feed a family.
The modern US is clearly neofascist, but did have strong fascist roots as well. Hitler based the final solution on the genocide of the Native Americans. US industrialists like Ford bankrolled the Nazi and Italian Fascist empires. He even went so far as to build factories in Germany and let them keep them and all the profits. US companies such as IBM gave material support to the Nazi helping with the census of Jews and the logistics of sending them to the death camps.
I find it funny that you caution against bringing modernism to the past, but then bring up a lot of ancient history to link to present time. Obviously, we view all history through a modern lens. This is a good thing though because it lets us see past the bullshit rhetoric and propaganda like liberty and freedom for what they really were.
The past influences the present but sadly time is apparently linear so the reverse inherently is not possible. Also bringing up Ford and IBM is kinda well outside the period of the initial 50 years of the US existing, yes the US has had massive ties fascism both in its proto and fully formed variants. I’m not defending the modern US by any means and I’m going to make it explicit and state I consider anything within a 150 years from present to be modern, that’d make something like say The Wounded Knee Massacre modern.
I consider the promises of the revolution and it’s true potential dead by the time Andrew Jackson was president and more or less solidified by the Trail of Tears. Everything good past that point is simply resources and progress to be exploited and taken advantage of by whatever successor states form when the US collapses. There have been multiple points of salvageablity but all of them have been failures.
My point is entirely on the fact that the US wasn’t inherently fascistic in its first 50 years because the ideologies that did more directly lead to fascism were not the big name revolutionaries. By the time of the civil war for example, yeah the Confederates were out and out proto fascists same fucken retoric as well and since they weren’t purged the tainted the rest of the US.
You really need to study the rhetoric and propaganda of the US revolution. I think you may be heavily romanticising a business plot to take over the colonies. It wasn’t even really a revolutionary revolution considering they pretty much adopted the systems of England wholesale. The rhetoric of the revolution was very different than the reality of the Sons of Liberty’s campaign of terror, death, and destruction.
You know your rhetoric isn’t the best when you have to force it with violence. A portion of the wealthy caste of the US made a successful power grab in the end. In order to get there they had to murder, torture their fellow man, and lie about what happened as seen in the numerous amounts of propaganda distorting the facts of the revolution.
The colonies were already well into their genocidal attacks on the Native Americans by this time. Even the best way to look at it, that they advanced the rights of wealthy white men, is pretty hollow when it was at the cost of everyone and everything else. The first President of the US was well on the way to becoming the first billionaire adjusted for inflation. The rot was always there.
Yeah the US was using eagle and fasci symbolism long before fascism was a thing, because fascists and the founding fathers were both Romaboos. Also before anyone says the founding fathers were fascists id argue they weren’t simply because the fascism of their era was the absolute monarchies, they were assholes and hypocritical jackasses though.
Proto-fascists.
Proto would imply that there’s a direct line between them and fascism but it’s more like a deranged series of foot paths that are just as likely to lead to anarchism. Reminder folks from John Brown to Ho Chi Minh had respect for the revolutionaries even with their own critiques, also as I noted there is a far more direct line from the institutions of feudalism and monarchy to fascism. But political ideology at the time was weird and hard to classify within taxonomy, for example the Utopians who were the proto-socialists explicitly were also pro-slavery because they couldn’t think of other ways for mass manufacturing.
There is a direct line, the US helped to fund, create, and embrace fascism. After the defeat of the Axis powers the US went on to spread fascism around the globe. This, in my opinion, is not really up for debate unless you are an apologist or someone who is in denial.
My point is moreso that while the modern US is at best fascist aligned at worst outright fascistic the first 50 years or so fall into the same category as Rome, the Carolingian empire, or Babylon wherein it was far enough in the past that our modern descriptions don’t quite work due to just how different the world was. For context it wasn’t until the latter half of those first 50 years that steam power starts to refine enough to be usable let alone viable.
I try to caution inflicting modernism unto the past and that includes describing ideologies and tendencies that at the time didn’t exist, because you get weirdness like how Julius Caesar was technically to the left of Mamdani when it came to food distribution and rent increases for context Caesar stopped the collection of rent outright and gave out free grain in quantities enough to feed a family.
The modern US is clearly neofascist, but did have strong fascist roots as well. Hitler based the final solution on the genocide of the Native Americans. US industrialists like Ford bankrolled the Nazi and Italian Fascist empires. He even went so far as to build factories in Germany and let them keep them and all the profits. US companies such as IBM gave material support to the Nazi helping with the census of Jews and the logistics of sending them to the death camps.
I find it funny that you caution against bringing modernism to the past, but then bring up a lot of ancient history to link to present time. Obviously, we view all history through a modern lens. This is a good thing though because it lets us see past the bullshit rhetoric and propaganda like liberty and freedom for what they really were.
The past influences the present but sadly time is apparently linear so the reverse inherently is not possible. Also bringing up Ford and IBM is kinda well outside the period of the initial 50 years of the US existing, yes the US has had massive ties fascism both in its proto and fully formed variants. I’m not defending the modern US by any means and I’m going to make it explicit and state I consider anything within a 150 years from present to be modern, that’d make something like say The Wounded Knee Massacre modern.
I consider the promises of the revolution and it’s true potential dead by the time Andrew Jackson was president and more or less solidified by the Trail of Tears. Everything good past that point is simply resources and progress to be exploited and taken advantage of by whatever successor states form when the US collapses. There have been multiple points of salvageablity but all of them have been failures.
My point is entirely on the fact that the US wasn’t inherently fascistic in its first 50 years because the ideologies that did more directly lead to fascism were not the big name revolutionaries. By the time of the civil war for example, yeah the Confederates were out and out proto fascists same fucken retoric as well and since they weren’t purged the tainted the rest of the US.
You really need to study the rhetoric and propaganda of the US revolution. I think you may be heavily romanticising a business plot to take over the colonies. It wasn’t even really a revolutionary revolution considering they pretty much adopted the systems of England wholesale. The rhetoric of the revolution was very different than the reality of the Sons of Liberty’s campaign of terror, death, and destruction.
You know your rhetoric isn’t the best when you have to force it with violence. A portion of the wealthy caste of the US made a successful power grab in the end. In order to get there they had to murder, torture their fellow man, and lie about what happened as seen in the numerous amounts of propaganda distorting the facts of the revolution.
The colonies were already well into their genocidal attacks on the Native Americans by this time. Even the best way to look at it, that they advanced the rights of wealthy white men, is pretty hollow when it was at the cost of everyone and everything else. The first President of the US was well on the way to becoming the first billionaire adjusted for inflation. The rot was always there.