And I guess that’s where we’re just going to fundamentally disagree. The state should not have control over who does and doesn’t get freedom of speech. If they do, there is not truly freedom of speech.
Then you’re lacking class consciousness. Every state serves a class over another. In capitalist societies, it’s the bourgeoisie over the proletariat. In a socialist society it’s the opposite.
You can easily observe this in how basically all of western media is owned by a few companies that dictate what information gets to you.
Furthermore, not everyone deserves freedom of speech. Nazis should have 0 right to that.
In theory thats all well and good, but in practice there is no state which I would trust to decide who does and doesn’t get free speech. If the bourgeosie don’t get free speech, then the state can silence anyone they disagree with by labeling them as part of the bourgeoisie. And while I certainly wish we could just take freedom of speech from nazis - because they absolutely do not deserve it, you’re right about that - in that case the state can silence anyone by labeling them a nazi. Which kinda is happening right now because some will try to silence people who are pro-palestinian by labeling them as anti-semetic and then comparing them to nazis. You also see that with people being labeled as terrorists, or gang affiliated, for example. (Same argument applies to due process, and to a greater extent, but thats not super relevant)
I totally get that distrust because I used to think like that too.
The problem with this line of thinking is that, in my case at least, it came from a misunderstanding of how governments/states actually work due to intense propaganda, specially by right winger politicians that keep pushing this type narrative. Different types of states function differently.
All these issues you list are deeply linked with whose class controls the state, it’s not an issue with the state itself.
then the state can silence anyone they disagree with by labeling them as part of the bourgeoisie
That would be extremely hard to do. Being part of the bourgeoisie is a material condition, so unless you tick all the boxes that makes you part of it, there’s no conceivable way to simply label someone that in a socialist society just because. Furthermore, socialist societies have mechanisms of true popular democracy in place so people have a much bigger participation in politics, if such a problem would arise, people could do something about it, which goes in complete contrast to what happens in capitalist countries like the USA where, like you mentioned, you can simply be labeled an antisemite for protesting against the genocidal entity of Israel, can then be beat by the police for protesting the genocide and even sent to prison.
The thing here is that we need to look at how this is happening in real life right now. Are socialist states (Cuba, China, Laos, Vietnam, DPRK) doing that? As far as I know, no. Are capitalist ones doing that? Yes. So that in itself already suggests something is different in these states.
In fact, the reason why in the west you get labeled antisemitic for protesting against the genocide is directly linked with the bourgeoisie since it is in their interest that Israel continue existing. Biden himself admitted back in 1986 that the existence of Israel furthers US’s interests in the region. So showing solidarity with Palestine goes directly against the US’s bourgeoisie interests. That’s why you’re attacked by the state for that.
Mass censorship of the bourgeois. No freedom of speech for the bourgeois.
And I guess that’s where we’re just going to fundamentally disagree. The state should not have control over who does and doesn’t get freedom of speech. If they do, there is not truly freedom of speech.
Then you’re lacking class consciousness. Every state serves a class over another. In capitalist societies, it’s the bourgeoisie over the proletariat. In a socialist society it’s the opposite.
You can easily observe this in how basically all of western media is owned by a few companies that dictate what information gets to you.
Furthermore, not everyone deserves freedom of speech. Nazis should have 0 right to that.
In theory thats all well and good, but in practice there is no state which I would trust to decide who does and doesn’t get free speech. If the bourgeosie don’t get free speech, then the state can silence anyone they disagree with by labeling them as part of the bourgeoisie. And while I certainly wish we could just take freedom of speech from nazis - because they absolutely do not deserve it, you’re right about that - in that case the state can silence anyone by labeling them a nazi. Which kinda is happening right now because some will try to silence people who are pro-palestinian by labeling them as anti-semetic and then comparing them to nazis. You also see that with people being labeled as terrorists, or gang affiliated, for example. (Same argument applies to due process, and to a greater extent, but thats not super relevant)
I totally get that distrust because I used to think like that too.
The problem with this line of thinking is that, in my case at least, it came from a misunderstanding of how governments/states actually work due to intense propaganda, specially by right winger politicians that keep pushing this type narrative. Different types of states function differently.
All these issues you list are deeply linked with whose class controls the state, it’s not an issue with the state itself.
That would be extremely hard to do. Being part of the bourgeoisie is a material condition, so unless you tick all the boxes that makes you part of it, there’s no conceivable way to simply label someone that in a socialist society just because. Furthermore, socialist societies have mechanisms of true popular democracy in place so people have a much bigger participation in politics, if such a problem would arise, people could do something about it, which goes in complete contrast to what happens in capitalist countries like the USA where, like you mentioned, you can simply be labeled an antisemite for protesting against the genocidal entity of Israel, can then be beat by the police for protesting the genocide and even sent to prison.
The thing here is that we need to look at how this is happening in real life right now. Are socialist states (Cuba, China, Laos, Vietnam, DPRK) doing that? As far as I know, no. Are capitalist ones doing that? Yes. So that in itself already suggests something is different in these states.
In fact, the reason why in the west you get labeled antisemitic for protesting against the genocide is directly linked with the bourgeoisie since it is in their interest that Israel continue existing. Biden himself admitted back in 1986 that the existence of Israel furthers US’s interests in the region. So showing solidarity with Palestine goes directly against the US’s bourgeoisie interests. That’s why you’re attacked by the state for that.