Since we’re playing this game:
Isn’t the original post just a visualization of the history of the Chinese empire? Not sure how there was any game being played.
The tweet’s caption along with the circles+text try and deny Chinese Sovereignty over historical territory based arbitrarily on how long they have controlled it. This comparison is being made by a supporter of the US. The US has possessed it’s entire territory for a span of time shorter that was on this map is considered “Not Really China”, thus the US has no real claim to it’s territory by their logic. The big difference is that China isn’t a settler colony who genocided an indigenous population to exist, unlike the US.
Arguably, the current Chinese entity hasn’t committed genocide against indigenous populations, but previous Chinese entities most definitely have.
But the nation of China wasn’t founded on genocide. The US was. Without the genocide of the Native Americans, there would be no US.
Correct. The modern extent of China was acquired by genocide, but the notion of China itself was not.
I think the deciding difference is the foreign invasion and colonization that funded the US vs. the near mythologic cycle of violent fracture and violent reunification of China.
Not sure how there was any game being played.
I’m assuming you’ve never seen anything Noah Smith said before (I wish that was me). Look at the flags in his twitter handle. He’s an American nationalist and a NATO imperialist. It’s very clear that this is a fantasy about balkanizing China.
Death to the settler-colonial entity know us “The United States of America”, sometimes called AmeriKKKa.
Going to play devil’s advocate here a bit, but the US has had a continuous state since 1789 for parts of it, since the civil war for other parts, and the late 50s for small bits. It should be half orange, half yellow, with splotches of white.
The current Chinese state was formed in 1949. This entire map should be white. The Republic of China predates its formation by at least a year, and one could argue by some 30 years.
In the original map, the yellow map areas are for places which have been a part of China for 200-500 years.
If the same gradiant was applied to a map of the US, the entire map would be yellow or white.
Noah has labeled the parts in yellow as “not really china”, so following that logic, none of the US would ‘really’ be the US either.
According to the original map, Orange has been a part of China for longer than the US has existed. For example, the parts of xinjiang that the silk road passes through.
The thing is, no part of the land that currently falls under the Peoples Republic of China has been part of the PRC for more than 100 years, because the PRC didn’t exist before 1949. Almost all of the US predates that, except for (I think) Hawaii.
Were the Chinese Imperial dynasties the same thing as the PRC is now? And even if it was, the Republic of China was in between the two, and it even still exists.
So, you can complain about the US, but the Chinese state is MUCH newer, and had a huge fucking war about large swathes of it not wanting to belong to the state relatively recently.
Both maps aren’t extremely disingenuous.
This is historiography without object permanence. By your logic, France only exists since 1958. Russia only exists since 1991. Germany only exists since 1990. You’re being even more ridiculous than the person in the twitter screenshot.
Were the Chinese Imperial dynasties the same thing as the PRC is now?
In the idea that is is “China”? Yes. Same country, different government. The USA was an invention of the 18th century. China has been around for thousands. Regardless, “the amount of time” land has been controlled is a pretty nonsensical way to determine rightful possession of land. The map I made was mocking the original by applying the same logic to the US, given the guy making the original tweet supports the US.
The US’s illegitimacy draws not from how long they’ve existed, but the fact is was founded by Europeans who slaughtered those you lived here prior and forced this onto the least useful plots of land, the
GhettosReservations. The problem is that many modern Americans refuse to accept that maybe their righteous civil religion may have been founded on blood for the blood god.China has been around for thousands.
China as it is now was formed by having a giant fucking war against people who were ready to die to prevent themselves from being part of China as it is now. Just like pretty much every other country in all of history.
The difference between china (and pretty much every other country in Europe and Asia) and the is that those wars were at least mostly fought by people who actually lived there.
My point is, you can’t just say “this country is X years old”, because it almost never is, and it always depends on cherry picking. You can say Germany turns 36 this year, or you can say it turns 1226. Italy was either created in 1946, or the 3600 years ago at the founding of Rome. China can start with the Zhou dynasty 3000 years ago, or with Mao 70 years ago.
None of those are completely true, and yet they aren’t entirely wrong either. Thats why these maps are stupid. Proclaiming your state to be the best because some people had a state where yours now is is pretty dumb.
And ALL of them got where they are by killing people who didn’t want to be part of their state. Every single one.
China as it is now was formed by having a giant fucking war against people who were ready to die to prevent themselves from being part of China as it is now. Just like pretty much every other country in all of history.
This is an extremely strange way to describe the Chinese Civil War and the Second Sino-Japanese War. At best reductive in the extreme and at worst comically misleading.
The difference between china (and pretty much every other country in Europe and Asia) and the is that those wars were at least mostly fought by people who actually lived there.
OK, so you do understand at least some of the differences between civil war and settler colonialism.
My point is, you can’t just say “this country is X years old”, because it almost never is, and it always depends on cherry picking. You can say Germany turns 36 this year, or you can say it turns 1226. Italy was either created in 1946, or the 3600 years ago at the founding of Rome. China can start with the Zhou dynasty 3000 years ago, or with Mao 70 years ago.
You don’t seem to understand the concept of a nation and are mixing it up with the concept of a state.
A nation is a historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture.
- Joseph Stalin, Marxism and the National Question.
The Chinese nation is unquestionably older than any European or North American nation embodied in the current European and North American states, because there is unquestionably a Chinese culture that can be traced from those previous polities, which considered themselves Chinese. Even just considering a Chinese state/independent polity it would be ridiculous to say that it was founded 70 years ago. On the other hand, it’s trivial to tell that the oldest possible date for the founding of America is very recent by comparison, so the person in the twitter screenshot is obviously a hypocrite, which is the whole point of the post.
None of those are completely true, and yet they aren’t entirely wrong either. Thats why these maps are stupid. Proclaiming your state to be the best because some people had a state where yours now is is pretty dumb.
So you do understand the point of the post.
And ALL of them got where they are by killing people who didn’t want to be part of their state. Every single one.
You’ve reduced all the complexities of history to a single sentence which serves only to obscure the crimes of settler-colonialism.
This is an extremely strange way to describe the Chinese Civil War and the Second Sino-Japanese War. At best reductive in the extreme and at worst comically misleading.
It’s literally the definition of a civil war.
OK, so you do understand at least some of the differences between civil war and settler colonialism.
Is the difference that ita colonialism if you need a boat to get there? Because I should point out Taiwan is an island.
The Chinese nation is unquestionably older than any European or North American nation embodied in the current European and North American states, because there is unquestionably a Chinese culture that can be traced from those previous polities, which considered themselves Chinese.
And this would be that cherrypicking I mentioned. I don’t fault that, because every method is cherrypicking, because there isn’t a “true” or “best” system.
What I do fault is that you seem to be completely incapable of recognizing it when it happens on your team, but can spot it easily when going “America bad”.
It’s literally the definition of a civil war.
No, it isn’t lmao. A huge number of people who fought against the CPC in the civil war went on to live in China afterwards. Some people switched sides. A civil war is fought for control over a country for many reasons, it’s not “a giant fucking war against people who were ready to die to prevent themselves from being part of” the country afterwards. The only reason to frame the Chinese Civil War like this other than ignorance is to soft-pedal glorification of or apologia for the KMT, painting them as some kind of popular resistance movement against the CPC.
Is the difference that ita colonialism if you need a boat to get there? Because I should point out Taiwan is an island.
“at least some of the differences”
And this would be that cherrypicking I mentioned. I don’t fault that, because every method is cherrypicking, because there isn’t a “true” or “best” system.
I’m not advocating a true or best system, this is a thread about the hypocrisy of an American nationalist on twitter. However, if you think that the Chinese Civil War wasn’t vastly “better” than colonialism (the comparison you seem to insist on making, for some reason), I think we have very little to say to each other.
So we’re discussing imperialism, and how does it look around the world? Nice.
You can also add Russia, and them there are a lot of good examples of what some European countries did in Africa and so on.
