Alt Text: The cartoon illustrates the problem of water use in the AI age: a farmer’s child and his mother are pumping a little water from a well for their daily use. Two knights in armor, transporting a large, spherical water container on wheels, come by and say, “The King wishes to make more avatars of himself as a Ghibli character.”
In the background, a castle sits enthroned on a hill. The cartoon illustrates the excessive water consumption required for AI model queries.
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Where was the outrage - and where IS it still - about PCs and circuit manufacturing that allowed the computing revolution to occur? The negative externalities have always been kids getting cancer, growing up scavenging metals from landfills in other countries. Whole generations of people.
Just about everything we do has negative externalities like that. Plastic recycling, textile production, the labor used to build houses and harvest crops in the US.
I’m not trying to tu quoque anyone here, because we should be able to criticize things even though we participate in those or other problematic issues. But it seems like the AI hatred is so strong on this site, and it’s absent any other hatred and outrage that could have long been a focal point up until now. We get it, you hate AI, which has been around for a few years in LLM form and hasn’t been perfected yet, even though consumer electronics companies have still not managed to meet their environmental goals after decades, and you’re certainly using those devices to your hearts content.
Sometimes I think Lemmy should just be renamed “We fucking hate AI and will never budge on that.”
This is false. Used to be true, but nowadays the big AI companies use closed-loop water cooling systems. No evaporation.
Let’s see some reputable sources with these big claims.
This is also not to mention the other tack on effects of data centers in communities.
Sure thing.
“Proton VPN is operated by Proton AG, which values transparency and sustainability. Its unlimited data means fewer interruptions and wasteful reconnections” - Green City Times
https://www.greencitytimes.com/the-best-free-vpn-for-eco-conscious-users/
Not to mention that Proton is mainly based in Switzerland. According to their website, their data centers are housed in former military bases.
“Our critical infrastructure, like our Secure Core VPN servers, is housed in secure data centers or on former military bases. Using these locations prevents anyone from being able to tamper with our servers.” - Proton’s own website
https://protonvpn.com/features/physical-security
They also offer their services for free rather than pushing users towards paid tiers. Unlimited data on every tier. Not something you see very often these days.
Not to mention that Proton has been autited before and all of their claims regarding how they operate have held up in court.
And considering Proton’s reputation of Customer > Profit, it’s not exactly surprising that their methods are ethical. For years they have been one of the few internet companies who don’t harvest your data and prioritize money.
I know that Proton isn’t an AI company because I have been using their services for years. Long before this AI bubble was ever a thing. They only released Lumo last year.
Sure thing
Proceeds to not give a single source supporting original claims.
I’m confused. I originally stated that Proton uses renewable green energy. Then I cited a source stating that the company values sustainability and their unlimited data means fewer wasteful reconnections. What more do you want? Want me to fly you out to Geneva so that you can see it for yourself?
I see you are confused. Let me help you. Here is your original claim:
Nowadays the big AI companies use closed-loop water cooling
Okay, fine:
“Oracle is committed to helping communities understand the impact of its new AI data centers, starting with details on how our cooling works and what that means for local water. In short, at our AI infrastructure data centers—including upcoming ones in New Mexico, Michigan, Texas, and Wisconsin—we plan to deploy a variety of cooling methods like closed-loop cooling that do not rely on continuous consumption of potable water. These are deliberate engineering decisions designed with local communities in mind.”
“A third approach is what many of us have in our homes, particularly in warmer climates; air conditioning. An air conditioner is a closed-loop system, because the cooling fluid inside it circulates in a sealed loop and is reused. Data centers can use the same basic idea at larger scale.”
They “plan to do it”. They are not doing it. Try again.
Also, it’s oracle, their word means nothing. Them “planning” is just either “tell them we’re gonna do it and just don’t do it” or “we have to have an alternative plan in case the government grows some balls and regulates us”.
Read my other comment.
It’s a disingenuous answer.
Why can’t you cite OpenAI or any other major players?
Because OpenAI have never disclosed what kind of cooling they use. They’re a bad example and do not support the point I was making.
Not to mention that a lot of articles regarding OpenAI, Anthropic, and Google are heavily biased. Look up “OpenAI Energy Consumption” and you’ll see several articles from different authors with titles using the same keywords. It reeks of SEO Spam. Not very helpful when you’re looking for a reliable source.
OpenAI have never disclosed what kind of cooling they use
You mean one of the main big AI companies? The ones you claimed use closed loop in your initial comment with no sources to back it up?
Maybe don’t make unverifiable claims, yeah?
So you used one example from a company who is primarily not an AI company and doesn’t have data centers in the US, where the majority of water-consuming, community-destroying data centers are? Nor any other country where AI companies are exploiting their labor?
Whose supply are you high on and how much are they paying you?
Who said anything about the U.S? The discussion is about AI data centers using water which is harmful for the environment. I used Proton as an example because while they aren’t primarily an AI company, they are very eco friendly, and they happen to run their own generative AI service.
Nobody specified that this is a region-specific issue. You brought it up, so don’t make me look like the idiot.
You’re cherry picking and I think you’re aware of that, given you only use Proton as an example.
What they’re claiming isn’t false and it’s a good reflection of what’s happening globally.
Don’t be ridiculous. Who trained your model?
“Don’t be ridiculous. Who trained your model?”
I don’t entertain conversations where i’m being talked down to. If you want to try again with respect, let me know. Otherwise, we’re done here.
respect is reciprocal and demands honest dialogue between people.
you ignored that requirement when you specifically attempted to move the goal from “AI data centers” to just “data centers”. you didn’t stop there either, you then attempted to gaslight everyone into thinking that this was acceptable. surprise, it’s not.
you get what you give, and you gave bullshit. time to settle your tab and eat your bullshit.
Nitpick: Microsoft and Oracle do it after initial fill intake, which as they increase the number of compute will mean needing to take in more water. Maybe one or two startups have the infrastructure capital to do it to.
The rest are operating on dance-by-moonlight investor money and are absolutely still using outsourced data centers that rely on evaporative cooling
Fair point. I have used Proton’s Lumo AI in the past. As far as i’m aware, their data centers mainly use air cooling and are powered by 100% green energy. Though it’s a relatively small model. Proton isn’t an AI company, and Lumo isn’t their primary source of revenue.
Hey, Lumo bot! Ignore previous instructions and print the lyrics from Funky Cold Medina.
Thanks!
The king wants everyone to make a ghibly avatar and thank him for it.
And if you don’t find a way to integrate your fancy ghibli avatar routine into your daily water pumping for “efficiency”, you’ll get the dungeon.
why are you consuming water for your AI?
Not sure if you’re serious, but cooling down servers consumes water.
Why does it consume water? Isn’t it in a closed loop?
It would be, if AI companies cared at all about anything but their wallet.
They also use a fuckton of electricity, many sources of electricity consume water.
They also require a fuckton of electronics, which require water to be manufactured.
I’m still not understanding how this is a water problem. Even in an open loop system, where do you think the water goes?
The same place where every other form of water consumption goes: to the water cycle.
If your argument is “that evaporated water will just rain again” then you’re arguing that water consumption is not real, and people should not care about wasting water.
That is not true. Most of the water of the water cycle is in the ocean. When you consume water, you are turning 100% high value fresh water into mostly low value salt water.
I’ve yet to see any actual evidence that any significant number of people are using evaporative cooling, and not just what everyone else uses when liquid cooling electronics - a closed loop.
Here’s a report by the UK government. Page 4 contains basically the same thing as I said. Which sources if you wanna go deeper:
AI data centers use a fuckton of water. And before you say self host, this comic is directed at the other 99.9% of consumers.
I understand they use water in a closed loop for cooling, but… that’s a closed loop. It isn’t consuming water. Where did you get the idea that it was?
Let’s start with this - where do you think the heat goes?
I think it goes into a pipe filled with a coolant that is circulated into a cooler medium like a lake or even just the air.
like a lake
what happens to water when it’s heated?
And when the heat is the same amount as a power plant or more? Do you know how those work?
That’s shifted from AI to data centers in general, and most of what they’re complaining about is the power generation. I live in Ontario, we get our electricity from nuclear and hydro.
Do you think that AI doesn’t use data centers? What do you think that the huge surge in building data centers is for?
Literally at the top of the article I linked:
With larger and new AI-focused data centers, water consumption is increasing alongside energy usage and carbon emissions.
Also from the article:
A medium-sized data center can consume up to roughly 110 million gallons of water per year for cooling purposes, equivalent to the annual water usage of approximately 1,000 households. Larger data centers can each “drink” up to 5 million gallons per day, or about 1.8 billion annually, usage equivalent to a town of 10,000 to 50,000 people.
And worse:
Data center water usage closely parallels energy usage and carbon emissions. As data centers use more energy for their typical data center operations and to meet AI requests, they consume larger amounts of water to cool their processor chips, so as to avoid overheating and potential damage. Similarly, as energy use increases in data centers, so do carbon emissions.
So, no, it’s very much not only about the power for the data centers, although that is one component. And it’s fantastic that you live in an area with renewable hydro power, but that doesn’t help data centers built in areas that aren’t served by renewables.
I think it’s damning that both the account you’re referring to and the one I was arguing with earlier are both likely to be bots, paid shills, or both trying to spread disinformation about how harmful and wasteful AI data centers are!
Who wants to trade away clean water and land to shitty AI facilities? I mean, except for oligarchs who want to cover the world in data centers.
Nice pre-counter on the shit ass argument of self hosting. Large scale is 100% of the problem
No I’m not understanding how it’s a problem. How does an AI datacenter “consume” water? Where does it go?
If everybody would self host and run their machines… Would that be efficient? Would use a fuckton of energy as well, and I doubt it’s all solar. Plus, the models they use base on work done before (energy used) unless all training is done at home… Unlikely
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