It depends what your standard is for good enough, honestly. If you’re making art for the art, I certainly haven’t seen anything from AI music that seems actually artful, and I wouldn’t feel comfortable putting my music out into the world that didn’t feel like art to me. If you’re churning out 30 second jingles for advertising or microtransaction-riddled mobile games, maybe then the standard is lower

E: of course, if “good enough” is “enough to make a C suite douchebag give it the okay with dollar signs in their eyes” then yeah.

I mean it matters in the sense that you just won’t eat if you can’t muster up the mental energy to make a meal.

E: this was me

There are still places with surprisingly good value for money, but they’re rare. Greggs has been this for me, recently, though maybe a useless point of reference for anyone outside the uk

It depends on the type of game you’re running and its an expectation that should be set from the beginning (as is “whether a 20 is a critical skill check at all”)

My games tend to be more grounded, so when I have run critical skill checks, they are a success with a reasonable bonus. A critical persuasion check might have the guard believe your phony story but also accidentally let slip some useful info as you’re passing through the gates because he’s let his guard down.

But in a game where the vibe is more out there and power fantasy-y, heck yeah, let your 20s rewrite reality!

To be clear, I don’t think people are transphobic if they disagree with my solution. I think they are sharing a transphobic view if they share that the solution is to exclude trans people. We can completely divorce this conversation from my idea of how to solve the issue. People far more qualified than you or I will be the ones to figure this out. I can only hope that they will not so willingly throw trans folk under the bus.

You mention disability sports and open mic nights.

I’m not disabled, nor have I studied this, so I can’t speak to how they feel about having a total separate set of events. Whether or not it is acceptable is not for me to comment on. It feels, to me, a bit exclusionary in an icky way, but I can’t begin to comprehend the lived experiences of the disabled and how or why disabled sport being its own thing has been good or bad for them.

Open mic nights being inaccessible to deaf folks is perhaps a bad example, because sign language interpreters are well established and if they wanted to make their open mic night accessible they could, very easily.

Anyway, I appreciate that you have taken the time to have a discussion about this but I think I’d like to disengage from this thread now - keep well

This really doesn’t seem reasonable. Many sports favour size but that’s not the end all be all.

Use size where appropriate, use lean muscle mass where appropriate, use something else where appropriate. Clearly hockey is a case where size is a useful but not perfect metric, so it may need to be taken in conjunction with other metrics. I do not think movement between divisions would be common, as ideally it would be largely based on physical characteristics which people don’t have much control over.

Anyway, I should be clear, I am not overly attached to my specific idea of how to divide up sports, I am moreso just opposed to the idea of excluding trans men from mens sports, and trans women from womens sports.

Yes, people watch the paralympics etc but vastly fewer.

The way sports are framed in the media/society I think is largely to blame for this. The advent of people generally finally giving a damn about women’s football, for example, is almost certainly due to a shift in the media narrative surrounding it. If the media and the promoters hype up some division the same way they do another, I reckon you’ll see the support.

And at the end of the day, these changes would be so an almost insignificant proportion (the number of people who become a pro athlete) of an already small percentage (number of transgender women - I mean, maybe in gymnastics there’d be an issue but for almost every mainstream sport, the concern is pretty unidirectional) can play in a hardly watched league and everyone else just has to suck it up.

My suggested approach might not be the way to do it, but yes, transgender people do not deserve to be relegated to their own little box where they won’t be bother anyone. You expressed concerns about whether people would watch “lower” divisions in my proposed solution - do you truly, and I mean genuinely in your core, believe that trans exclusive sport divisions would even get a second glance?

is kind of proof that this isn’t an issue that makes someone a transphobe.

I think this is somewhat fallacious. Just because my proposed solution may be unrealistic doesn’t make the exclusion of trans people any less transphobic.

According to Gallup, about 3/4 of Americans are opposed to transgender women in women’s sports.

Yeah, I am well aware of the transphobia problem in the usa ;P

I understand where you’re coming from on the Left Idealism. Its an in-joke on the left for a reason, right? Its just like, exhausting to always be the one who has to compromise. I imagine many marginalized folks from other backgrounds can agree.

It is “trans women/men” not “transwomen/men” (trans is an adjective, not a prefix, they are men/women, who are trans) and “cis men/women” not “biological men/women” (the concept of biological sex goes far deeper than what this use of the term implies, and it is also inappropriate to be talking about trans men/women, which is a gender, vs “biological” men/women, which means you’re actually talking about sex). Transmen/women and biological men/women are very much anti-trans dogwhistly terms (again - not implying you meant it as a dogwhistle, but telling you where you may be a better ally)

I think I made it quite clear in my post you replied to that I was also talking about trans men! I acknowledged that there were minor physical differences in trans men vs cis men. I am also concerned with safety - see the rest of my posts in this thread where I address the issue of safety! I am by no means suggesting that people who do have significant disparity be pit against one another, I am simply not choosing to limit that delineation only to transgender people.

There are definitely sports where the skills needed aren’t depending on gender

This isn’t what we are discussing, you suggested separating people who have the same gender from one another. Trans women and cis women are both women, as trans men and cis men are both men.

The first time you shared the opinion, sure, you aren’t unwilling. But continuing to hold such an opinion and defend it when challenged despite not actually investigating how valid it is in reality, shows an unwillingness to learn. Your opinion in this case is not innocuous - it is something that will affect the lives of a group of people who are already constantly under attack by the media, governments, and those around them.

I can’t really vouch for what you said specifically that got you banned, or for the reaction to what you said, some instances are more reactive in that sense than others.

I am glad to have been an example of non-infantile response to you in debate.

I don’t mean to harp on but

it implies actively wanting to hurt or exclude trans people from society

Having a separate category for trans men and a separate category for trans women is literally exclusionary. It reinforces the (transphobic) idea that trans men are not men and trans women are not women. You, despite maybe not being a transphobe, currently hold one (1) view that is itself transphobic. And hey, I don’t think its entirely your fault. Transphobia is so deeply rooted in our society that even trans people struggle with internalised transphobia.

But if its the word “transphobia” that is where its getting stuck then let me rephrase. It is a view which at best is just false and misinformed and has overlap with genuine anti-trans rhetoric, and at worst contributes to the continued oppression of transgender people.

I believe the most productive way to open people’s minds to the world isn’t to immediately go on the offensive and assume the worst about them when they say something that makes you go “Hm, I didn’t like that.” Most of the time it forces people into a very defensive position and closes them off from the points you’re trying to make and that is unfortunate.

This is a sticky one. It is not the job of the oppressed to educate anybody, I hope we can agree on that. I agree that the approach you are talking about is not the best way to sway someone, but put yourself in the shoes of trans folk. It is a constant barrage of hate. For safety, it can be better to assume the worst and be proven wrong. It is also exhausting to always have to be the one who is trying to justify your existence and inclusion. All the same goes for other marginalised groups. Judging by your post history I think you’re a woman, another marginalized group. I am sure you can appreciate what I’m getting at. It is, honestly, self defense, and I can’t fault people for it.

You’re right though that it crops up in other places too. Tankies hate the libs, libs hate the tankies, anarchists hate the libs, the right hates the libs, socialists hate the libs. /j. I think its just a symptom of online forums if left unchecked. There are instances which are worse and better for this though. My instance for example, beehaw, has the rule of “be(e) nice”, and I think you can typically expect to have a good discussion with a beehaw user even if you disagree.

Hope your busy day is nice at least.

Sure, in reality we have to settle for things like “reporting on gender pay gaps” instead of “fundamentally uprooting the patriarchy so that people of all genders are uplifted” but the latter is still what I’d push for in discussion. The former is a half measure which hasn’t fixed the problem, the latter won’t happen. In the trans sports discussion, putting trans people in their own little box doesn’t fix the problem for trans people, but it fixes it for cis people, who are the majoriity, so that’s fine I suppose.

Re: it wouldn’t get watched - plenty of people watch featherweight boxing, or varying degrees of physical (dis)ability at the paralympics! I have no reason to believe that the same wouldn’t be true of other sports. You aren’t lumping “bad players” with “physically less able players”. You’d divide up the sport into divisions which all exhibit people at the peak of physical performance and athleticism for what their meat sack allows. I imagine you’d probably see something very similar (but crucially, not identical) to the current mens and womens’ top teams fall out at the end of it. Of course, neither of us can back either way on this up with data, but my opinion remains that this would be fine and even healthy for most sports.

I have watch womens sport leagues! Before we moved I was a regular at our local spot for wheelchair basketball and the womens’ teams were a joy.

There might be a middle ground! Othering trans people is not “middle” in any way, as far as I see it.

All good, keep well

Yeah. People who are being attacked from all sides atm tend to be a little titchy. Can’t justify anyone who is abusive toward you, hope that doesn’t happen.

When I said

Separating men and women in certain physical sports for safety and fairness is founded in reality and fact

I was speaking loosely because I didn’t want to get into the miniscule details of what my proposed solution is to sports safety. It is founded in reality and fact (but there are significant issues with this approach because edge cases and actually I believe blah blah).

I wasn’t speaking about popular context, the person I was replying to specifically mentioned professional sports, and so that’s the context I was discussing. I can’t debate a point they never made.

Yes, status quo is cis-centric and inherently does not support the existence of transgender people. I do believe that sport should get the big reconfiguration you are talking about. Radical change is required in a great many spaces to actually be fair and just. Sport is one of these. Do I believe it will happen? No, not really. The world does not care enough about whether it is just and fair. I will welcome change that is less radical, but I cannot pretend it is my ideal.

Re: how to do it - research, data. What are the factors that lead to increased performance outcomes and what are the factors that lead to higher rates of injury. Account for these. Throwing transgender people into their own leagues so you don’t have to actually do the hard work to truly include them is, I reiterate, transphobic.

I dont think wanting to separate sport based on actual measurable physical metrics rather than a social demographic is at odds with the fact that cis/trans women (on hormones for long enough) lose their significant differences for sport. Separating sport based on physical metrics would mean that someone at the top of the bell curve isn’t breaking the skull of someone at the bottom of the bell curve just because they are both women, cis or trans doesn’t even come into that.

We don’t agree on a), because I think that the division in professional sports shouldn’t be by gender in the first place, but by some actual physical metric like mass or hormone levels. The “distance along transition” isn’t arbitrary because there is research into muscle mass/strength/body makeup variation with time for hormone treatment in transgender individuals. A research based approach to the threshold is the obvious answer. Rather than arbitrarily othering transgender people into their own little trans leagues. Cis people should be subject to the same things, otherwise your core concern isn’t about safety but about gatekeeping where trans people and only trans people can participate

b) agreement here

c) I think this falls out quite obviously with my stance in my first paragraph, but yes. all professional athletes (see: not just transgender people) should be divided up in a safe and fair way. If a cisgender woman just so happened to have absolute brute genetics and displayed the sort of physical strength and body mass that you would typically only see of men, would it be any more safe for her to compete aginst other women? Obviously not. The fair and just thing to do is not to segregate transgender people, but to change how we divide up professional sport leagues so that everybody is treated fairly and can play safely.

Also wtf is with the “Christ, I’m going to regret this” attitude? I’ve been calm and level in all my engagement here.

Pair of green elasticated trousers?

Heck yeah

Separating men and women in certain physical sports for safety and fairness is founded in reality and fact. Separating transgender women from cisgender women has no such foundation, and in fact the research directly disagrees with it. There is a minor difference between cisgender men and transgender men in terms of physical performance.

Your views are transphobic because you share and propagate disinformation about transgender people while, if this conversation is anything to go by, willingly choosing not to educate yourself on what the facts are.

Me pointing out that you are factually incorrect is not “unproductive” unless you as an individual refuse to educate yourself on what the facts are. I didn’t call you a transphobe, I never said anything about you. I never labelled you. I told you that you were wrong. Perhaps you should look inward if you consider it “echo chambery” and “extremism” when you are told by a transgender woman that you are sharing harmful views about transgender people.

The rest of lemmy blocked you for transphobia because you shared transphobic views, views that are not based in reality. If you are going to suggest something which concerns the treatment and rights of a group which is currently being oppressed and targeted worldwide, please ensure that you are doing so based on facts rather than vibes.

I can empathise with wanting to disengage from political discourse from time to time.

Love it when the in-world behaviours are also accounted for by the rule system

Imagine if it was possible for humans to eat something else :(

Fun fact

It doesn’t mention anywhere in the nursery rhyme that humpty dumpty is an egg :)

This, in fact, is an excellent example of adhering to the prime directive.

An optional videogame filter that used a small nation’s yearly electricity to train and contributed to skyrocketing pc hardware prices

Edit: to be clear, death threats are WAY too far. Unacceptable

Yes