Are Motorola ok?

Depends on what you value in a phone. Like, I like a vanilla OS, a lot of memory, large battery, and a SIM slot. I don’t care much about the camera quality and don’t care at all about size and weight (in fact, if someone made a tablet-sized phone, I’d probably switch to that). That’s almost certainly not the mix that some other people want.

There’s some phone comparison website I was using a while back that has a big database of phones and lets you compare and search based on specification.

goes looking

This one:

https://www.phonearena.com/phones

We just had an article on how Asus is pulling out of the smartphone market too:

https://lemmy.today/post/45923370

Not as significant as OnePlus, I guess, but two articles about two different manufacturers exiting in two days is a lot.

That’s why they have the “Copilot PC” hardware requirement, because they’re using an NPU on the local machine.

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https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/ai/npu-devices/

Copilot+ PCs are a new class of Windows 11 hardware powered by a high-performance Neural Processing Unit (NPU) — a specialized computer chip for AI-intensive processes like real-time translations and image generation—that can perform more than 40 trillion operations per second (TOPS).

It’s not…terribly beefy. Like, I have a Framework Desktop with an APU and 128GB of memory that schlorps down 120W or something, substantially outdoes what you’re going to do on a laptop. And that in turn is weaker computationally than something like the big Nvidia hardware going into datacenters.

But it is doing local computation.

I’m kind of more-sympathetic to Microsoft than to some of the other companies involved.

Microsoft is trying to leverage the Windows platform that they control to do local LLM use. I’m not at all sure that there’s actually enough memory out there to do that, or that it’s cost-effective to put a ton of memory and compute capacity in everyone’s home rather than time-sharing hardware in datacenters. Nor am I sold that laptops — which many “Copilot PCs” are — are a fantastic place to be doing a lot of heavyweight parallel compute.

But…from a privacy standpoint, I kind of would like local LLMs to be at least available, even if they aren’t as affordable as cloud-based stuff. And at least Microsoft is at least supporting that route. A lot of companies are going to be oriented towards just doing AI stuff in the cloud.

You only need one piece of (timeless) advice regarding what to look for, really: if it looks too good to be true, it almost certainly is. Caveat emptor.

I mean…normally, yes, but because the situation has been changing so radically in such a short period of time, it probably is possible to get some bonkers deals in various niches, because the market hasn’t stabilized yet.

Like, a month and a half back, in early December, when prices had only been going up like crazy for a little while, I was posting some tiny retailers that still had RAM in stock at pre-price-increase rates that I could find on Google Shopping. IIRC the University of Virginia bookstore was one, as they didn’t check that purchasers were actually students. I warned that they’d probably be cleaned out as soon as scalpers got to them, and that if someone wanted memory, they should probably get it ASAP. Some days prior to that, there was a small PC parts store in Hawaii that had some (though that was out of stock by the next time I was looking and mentioned the bookstore).

That’s not to disagree with the point that @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world is making, that this was awfully sketchy as a source, or your point that scavenging components off even a non-scam piece of secondhand non-functional hardware is risky. But in times of rapid change, it’s not impossible to find deals. In fact, it’s various parties doing so that cause prices to stabilize — anyone selling memory for way below market price is going to have scalpers grab it.

I don’t think that memory manufacturers are in some plot to promote SaaS. It’s just that they can make a ton of money off the demand right now for AI buildout, and they’re trying to make as much money as they can in the limited window that they have. All kind of industries are going to be collateral damage for a while. Doesn’t require a more complicated explanation.

Michael Crichton had some way of putting “it’s not about you” it in Sphere that I remember liking.

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“I’m afraid that’s true,” Norman said. “The sphere was built to test whatever intelligent life might pick it up, and we simply failed that test.”

“Is that what you think the sphere was made for?” Harry said. “I don’t.”

“Then what?” Norman said.

“Well,” Harry said, “look at it this way: Suppose you were an intelligent bacterium floating in space, and you came upon one of our communication satellites, in orbit around the Earth. You would think, What a strange, alien object this is, let’s explore it. Suppose you opened it up and crawled inside. You would find it very interesting in there, with lots of huge things to puzzle over. But eventually you might climb into one of the fuel cells, and the hydrogen would kill you. And your last thought would be: This alien device was obviously made to test bacterial intelligence and to kill us if we make a false step.

“Now, that would be correct from the standpoint of the dying bacterium. But that wouldn’t be correct at all from the standpoint of the beings who made the satellite. From our point of view, the communications satellite has nothing to do with intelligent bacteria. We don’t even know that there are intelligent bacteria out there. We’re just trying to communicate, and we’ve made what we consider a quite ordinary device to do it.”

Like, two years back, there was a glut of memory in the market. Samsung was losing a lot of money. They weren’t losing money back then because they were trying to promote personal computer ownership any more than they’re trying to deter personal computer ownership in 2026. It’s just that demand can gyrate more-rapidly than production capacity can adjust.

I’m not really a hardware person, but purely in terms of logic gates, making a memory circuit isn’t going to be hard. I mean, a lot of chips contain internal memory. I’m sure that anyone that can fabricate a chip can fabricate someone’s memory design that contains some amount of memory.

For PC use, there’s also going to be some interface hardware. Dunno how much sophistication is present there.

I’m assuming that the catch is that it’s not trivial to go out and make something competitive with what the PC memory manufacturers are making in price, density, and speed. Like, I don’t think that if you want to get a microcontroller with 32 kB of onboard memory, that it’s going to be a problem. But that doesn’t really replace the kind of stuff that these guys are making.

EDIT: The other big thing to keep in mind is that this is a short-term problem, even if it’s a big problem. I mean, the problem isn’t the supply of memory over the long term. The problem is the supply of memory over the next couple of years. You can’t just build a factory and hire a workforce and get production going the moment that someone decides that they want several times more memory than the world has been producing to date.

So what’s interesting is really going to be solutions that can produce memory in the near term. Like, I have no doubt that given years of time, someone could set up a new memory manufacturer and facilities. But to get (scaled-up) production in a year, say? Fewer options there.

One more thought — I don’t think that, even if someone is willing to do so as a stopgap until memory production ramps up adequately, that it’s possible to run Windows 11 on a DDR3-based system. DDR4 came out 12 years ago.

To copy my comment on the beehaw.org post, because they and lemmy.world aren’t federated:

This deal may make matters worse for more buyers, because PSMC used the Tongluo site to make legacy DRAM products – the kind of memory used in less advanced products. With the company now exiting the legacy chip biz, that memory will also become more scarce, giving the laws of supply and demand another moment in which to work their way on markets.

https://www.dqindia.com/esdm/microns-acquisition-of-psmcs-tongluo-fab-could-lift-global-dram-supply-outlook-in-2027-11012307

PSMC’s current DRAM capacity mainly relies on 25nm and 38nm nodes, which restricts DDR4 production to lower-density products.

I guess that that’s more DDR4 supply drying up. It’s going to be some very scarce years for memory until enough new production comes online.

EDIT:

https://tech.yahoo.com/computing/articles/amd-ryzen-chief-teases-return-201223682.html

AMD Ryzen chief teases return of older Zen 3 chips to fight soaring RAM prices — ‘That’s something we’re actively working on right now’

Restarting production of DD4-capable hardware isn’t going to help nearly as much if nobody is producing DDR4. I guess that there’s still DDR4 memory to scavenge from existing computers.

EDIT2:

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/109702/as-ram-crisis-intensifies-ddr3-motherboards-are-making-an-improbable-comeback/index.html

As RAM crisis intensifies, DDR3 motherboards are making an improbable comeback

Here’s one way to avoid paying an absolute fortune for RAM - forget DDR5 or even DDR4 memory, switch back to DDR3, as some folks are doing in China.

Now I regret throwing out the DDR3 memory that I have in the past.

This deal may make matters worse for more buyers, because PSMC used the Tongluo site to make legacy DRAM products – the kind of memory used in less advanced products. With the company now exiting the legacy chip biz, that memory will also become more scarce, giving the laws of supply and demand another moment in which to work their way on markets.

https://www.dqindia.com/esdm/microns-acquisition-of-psmcs-tongluo-fab-could-lift-global-dram-supply-outlook-in-2027-11012307

PSMC’s current DRAM capacity mainly relies on 25nm and 38nm nodes, which restricts DDR4 production to lower-density products.

I guess that that’s more DDR4 supply drying up. It’s going to be some very scarce years for memory until enough new production comes online.

I don’t understand how “gamer style” is a thing.

Like, in general? Lots of non-functional molded plastic angular stuff with unnecessary holes, crevices, lights, and styling slapped on stuff. Let me do a quick search for “gamer mouse”.

searches

Yeah. That’s a nice example.

The ROG Phone itself isn’t a particularly over-the-top example of that, but I don’t really want the styling.

It isn’t a deal-breaker, just that I’d rather not have it; for me it was a negative.

If you’re old enough to remember Winamp skins from the early 2000s

I am, and I agree that many of those did have similar over-the-top styling…and I don’t want to buy physical hardware that looks like it.

I generally just want understated hardware without a lot of styling on it on all my computer hardware. I’m sure that there are people who do want something that looks more like the above, and that’s fine, but it’s not an aesthetic that I personally much like.

If I had to guess, part of the problem is probably “bigger” hardware moving into their space.

Like, phones have a lot of limitations for playing “heavyweight”, PC-style games:

• Small battery.

• Small screen.

• Limited ability to dissipate heat.

• Really limited space and the hardware tradeoffs that come with that.

• Touchscreen controls, even with accelerometer, aren’t ideal for a lot of games, especially PC or console ports.

For a lot of those, if you can manage to lug a laptop with you, you’re probably better off.

Then you have stuff like the Steam Deck and a bunch of similar larger-than-phone game-oriented platforms show up, and that eats even further into your market. Yeah, okay, a ROG Phone is smaller and lighter than a Steam Deck, but if you’re trying to deal with touchscreen controls by lugging along external control stuff, then you’re sacrificing some of that mobility:

https://www.androidcentral.com/phones/asus-rog-phone-9-pro-is-the-best-gaming-phone-and-its-here-in-the-us

I mean, I’m sure that there’s still a niche for heavyweight-game phone gaming, but it’s gonna have other parties eating away at the edges, narrowing it. You gotta want to play heavyweight games, not be willing to use larger-than-phone hardware, but spend a substantial amount of money on your phone (especially given the short EOL on the ROG phone) to have that ability. My guess is that some people who won’t use other hardware for gaming is because they have a phone and are price-sensitive enough to not want to get additional hardware platforms to just play games, so “users willing to spend a high premium on phone hardware to be able to game” may be a poor match to that market.

Well…darn. Aside from the “gamer” styling and their unusually short years-of-support policy, I was actually kind of interested in their ROG phones, as they have both a substantial amount of memory and large batteries, and had them on the “possibles” list for my next phone. I don’t care much about the gaming aspect, but there weren’t a lot of other options with the above characteristics.

I’m using Debian trixie on two systems with (newer) AMD hardware:

ROCm 7.0.1.70001-42~24.04 on an RX 7900 XTX

ROCm 7.0.2.70002-56~24.04 on an AMD AI Max 395+.

No problem. It was an interesting question that made me curious too.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/30869297/difference-between-memfree-and-memavailable

Rik van Riel’s comments when adding MemAvailable to /proc/meminfo:

/proc/meminfo: MemAvailable: provide estimated available memory

Many load balancing and workload placing programs check /proc/meminfo to estimate how much free memory is available. They generally do this by adding up “free” and “cached”, which was fine ten years ago, but is pretty much guaranteed to be wrong today.

It is wrong because Cached includes memory that is not freeable as page cache, for example shared memory segments, tmpfs, and ramfs, and it does not include reclaimable slab memory, which can take up a large fraction of system memory on mostly idle systems with lots of files.

Currently, the amount of memory that is available for a new workload, without pushing the system into swap, can be estimated from MemFree, Active(file), Inactive(file), and SReclaimable, as well as the “low” watermarks from /proc/zoneinfo.

However, this may change in the future, and user space really should not be expected to know kernel internals to come up with an estimate for the amount of free memory.

It is more convenient to provide such an estimate in /proc/meminfo. If things change in the future, we only have to change it in one place.

Looking at the htop source:

https://github.com/htop-dev/htop/blob/main/MemoryMeter.c

   /* we actually want to show "used + shared + compressed" */
   double used = this->values[MEMORY_METER_USED];
   if (isPositive(this->values[MEMORY_METER_SHARED]))
      used += this->values[MEMORY_METER_SHARED];
   if (isPositive(this->values[MEMORY_METER_COMPRESSED]))
      used += this->values[MEMORY_METER_COMPRESSED];

   written = Meter_humanUnit(buffer, used, size);

It’s adding used, shared, and compressed memory, to get the amount actually tied up, but disregarding cached memory, which, based on the above comment, is problematic, since some of that may not actually be available for use.

top, on the other hand, is using the kernel’s MemAvailable directly.

https://gitlab.com/procps-ng/procps/-/blob/master/src/free.c

	printf(" %11s", scale_size(MEMINFO_GET(mem_info, MEMINFO_MEM_AVAILABLE, ul_int), args.exponent, flags & FREE_SI, flags & FREE_HUMANREADABLE));

In short: You probably want to trust /proc/meminfo’s MemAvailable, (which is what top will show), and htop is probably giving a misleadingly-low number.

If oomkiller starts killing processes, then you’re running out of memory.

Well, you could want to not dig into swap.

There might be some way to make use of it.

Linux apparently can use VRAM as a swap target:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Swap_on_video_RAM

So you could probably take an Nvidia H200 (141 GB memory) and set it as a high-priority swap partition, say.

Normally, a typical desktop is liable to have problems powering an H200 (600W max TDP), but that’s with all the parallel compute hardware active, and I assume that if all you’re doing is moving stuff in and out of memory, it won’t use much power, same as a typical gaming-oriented GPU.

That being said, it sounds like the route on the Arch Wiki above is using vramfs, which is a FUSE filesystem, which means that it’s running in userspace rather than kernelspace, which probably means that it will have more overhead than is really necessary.

EDIT: I think that a lot will come down to where research goes. If it turns out that someone figures out that changing the hardware (having a lot more memory, adding new operations, whatever) dramatically improves performance for AI stuff, I suspect that current hardware might get dumped sooner rather than later as datacenters shift to new hardware. Lot of unknowns there that nobody will really have the answers to yet.

EDIT2: Apparently someone made a kernel-based implementation for Nvidia cards to use the stuff directly as CPU-addressable memory, not swap.

https://github.com/magneato/pseudoscopic

In holography, a pseudoscopic image reverses depth—what was near becomes far, what was far becomes near. This driver performs the same reversal in compute architecture: GPU memory, designed to serve massively parallel workloads, now serves the CPU as directly-addressable system RAM.

Why? Because sometimes you have 16GB of HBM2 sitting idle while your neural network inference is memory-bound on the CPU side. Because sometimes constraints breed elegance. Because we can.

Pseudoscopic exposes NVIDIA Tesla/Datacenter GPU VRAM as CPU-addressable memory through Linux’s Heterogeneous Memory Management (HMM) subsystem. Not swap. Not a block device. Actual memory with struct page backing, transparent page migration, and full kernel integration.

I’d guess that that’ll probably perform substantially better.

It looks like they presently only target older cards, though.

This world is getting dumber and dumber.

Ehhh…I dunno.

Go back 20 years and we had similar articles, just about the Web, because it was new to a lot of people then.

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https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/internet-killed-my-daughter/28397087.html

Internet killed my daughter

https://archive.ph/pJ8Dw

Were Simon and Natasha victims of the web?

https://archive.ph/i9syP

Predators tell children how to kill themselves

And before that, I remember video games.

It happens periodically — something new shows up, and then you’ll have people concerned about any potential harm associated with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

A moral panic, also called a social panic, is a widespread feeling of fear that some evil person or thing threatens the values, interests, or well-being of a community or society.[1][2][3] It is “the process of arousing social concern over an issue”,[4] usually elicited by moral entrepreneurs and sensational mass media coverage, and exacerbated by politicians and lawmakers.[1][4] Moral panic can give rise to new laws aimed at controlling the community.[5]

Stanley Cohen, who developed the term, states that moral panic happens when “a condition, episode, person or group of persons emerges to become defined as a threat to societal values and interests”.[6] While the issues identified may be real, the claims “exaggerate the seriousness, extent, typicality and/or inevitability of harm”.[7] Moral panics are now studied in sociology and criminology, media studies, and cultural studies.[2][8] It is often academically considered irrational (see Cohen’s model of moral panic, below).

Examples of moral panic include the belief in widespread abduction of children by predatory pedophiles[9][10][11] and belief in ritual abuse of women and children by Satanic cults.[12] Some moral panics can become embedded in standard political discourse,[2] which include concepts such as the Red Scare[13] and terrorism.[14]

Media technologies

Main article: Media panic

The advent of any new medium of communication produces anxieties among those who deem themselves as protectors of childhood and culture. Their fears are often based on a lack of knowledge as to the actual capacities or usage of the medium. Moralizing organizations, such as those motivated by religion, commonly advocate censorship, while parents remain concerned.[8][40][41]

According to media studies professor Kirsten Drotner:[42]

[E]very time a new mass medium has entered the social scene, it has spurred public debates on social and cultural norms, debates that serve to reflect, negotiate and possibly revise these very norms.… In some cases, debate of a new medium brings about – indeed changes into – heated, emotional reactions … what may be defined as a media panic.

Recent manifestations of this kind of development include cyberbullying and sexting.[8]

I’m not sure that we’re doing better than people in the past did on this sort of thing, but I’m not sure that we’re doing worse, either.

I’m kind of surprised that it costs $2 million to put a new tank in. I’d have thought it’d be less.