USSR
Literally the definition of Soviet is council. The entire country was organized into democratic councils. Every single workplace was organized into a council. Yes, the workers were not allowed to plan quotas for the whole country, mostly because the workers in factories didn’t have access to all of the information about what all of their fellow countrymen needed. So there were other workers who were organized into other democratic councils and their job was to figure out what everyone in the country needed, and that information went up to the council of councils to determine the best way to meet all of the various short-term and long-term demands, of which there were no easy answers, so ANOTHER group of workers were organized into a council to research the question of how best to meet complex demands across a massive territory with a very low level of industry, which meant building the machines to build machines to build tools to build other machines.
And then the Nazis became ascendant, and the national security council made the decision to redirect production to prepare for war and the workers all had to follow those orders because the individual workers’ councils were not actually responsible for national security nor for analyzing geopolitics on the scale of 5-years or longer. And then the war hit and much of the country was forced to do whatever it took to survive.
And then immediately following the war the workers councils all worker together to rebuild the country. 8 years later, Kruschev took over, and he decided he wanted to create rich people again, so the whole ML thing sort of went out the window slowly as he and his cronies brought back liberalism, eroded the project of worker autonomy through councils, and ultimately just made everyone wage slaves while the oligarchs began to make plans for an alliance with the US to dominate the world and share all the wealth.
Billionaires do not control even half of the Chinese economy. They don’t own land in China. The government of the Communist Party is run through a hierarchy of councils, similar to the system of Soviets with a crucial difference - these councils spend a lot more time speaking directly with the masses and incorporating their feedback into their plans and adjusting based on the needs of the people.
In workplaces themselves, all state-owned enterprises have Staff and Worker Representative Congresses, and the state has now mandated that for most private companies. These congresses are democratic bodies that allow workers to participate in management decisions.
Both the USSR and China have had more democracy and more workplace democracy than any country in the Western sphere of influence ever.
DPRK
North Korea is literally still in the process of rebuilding its country after the USA bombed it to the literal stone age where Koreans had to live in caves to avoid napalm strafing because the Americans had literally destroyed every single building anyone could use to take cover in. The entire country was destroyed, every piece of infrastructure, every food source, every machine, every reserve of anything required for human life.
For the most part everyone in the country is a worker. There was no wealth to be had. In the present day, a number of “rich” North Koreans have accumulated stores of foreign capital through international trade, but domestically it’s not clear that there is a domestic wealth accumulation. You can’t own property. You can’t own companies. You can’t even really own cars. Everything is considered common property, managed by the state bureaucracy.
Work places are governed by workplace-specific councils that are part of the democratic centralist party. Quotas are still determined by the analyst workers groups, and generally for the good reason of managing scarcity of critical food, medicine, etc due to the crippling sanctions by the hegemonic West.
All of them
But again, we’re only talking about 75 years. It’s not that much time, especially when you consider a) war b) reconstruction c) Western siege d) literally no modern society has ever done it before and every country is trying to figure out how to function while also surviving in a world where the US will literally bomb your children, bomb your water supply, bomb your energy systems, bomb your schools, bomb your churches, kidnap your leaders, train/arm and deliver terrorists inside your country, and convince everyone else that if they trade with you they’ll bomb them, too.
The ML countries are the only countries that have ever done anything remotely successful in breaking from global imperial capitalism and creating the conditions to experiment with worker control of the entire country. It is a complex problem, not a switch. I know anarchists think everything can be prefigured, but anarchists are wrong.
famously super chill with calls for worker democracy, with super democratic and worker controlled councils that… Ultimately had to listen to the Supreme Soviets. Nice.
Both the USSR and China have had more democracy and more workplace democracy than any country in the Western sphere of influence ever.
“Billionaires are actually good as long as China controls them!” The conclusion of that article even says that it’s good to ‘make room for the hyper selfish so that they don’t leave China and cause brain-drain’. Like holy shit.
The ML countries are the only countries that have ever done anything remotely successful in breaking from global imperial capitalism
By… Becoming capitalists. Very 4D chess.
I know anarchists think everything can be prefigured, but anarchists are wrong.
[link to a literal violent rebellion] [this is evidence that USSR was against workers democracies]
Sure, Jan.
Ultimately had to listen to the Supreme Soviets (sic). Nice.
Correct, because the Supreme Soviet (singular) was accountable to the entire country whereas any given factory was only accountable to its local workers. The idea that a factory full of people who were peasant farmers 10 years ago could understand 100% of the impacts of their decisions on the health and wellbeing of millions of people across the country in a time before computers and digital information processing and communication is just silly.
Both the USSR and China have had more democracy and more workplace democracy than any country in the Western sphere of influence ever.
[1 Dead Link and 1 Link to Chinese slave labor]
Your counter examples don’t disprove my statement at all. Yes, there’s slavery in the Chinese system. That’s true. There’s also still more workplace democracy in China than any Western nation has ever had.
Billionaires are actually good as long as China controls them
On the contrary. Billionaires are an emergent aspect of rapid industrialization. China has chosen to capture them instead of prevent them, because preventing them has deleterious effects on society.
The conclusion of that article even says that it’s good to ‘make room for the hyper selfish so that they don’t leave China and cause brain-drain’. Like holy shit.
Brain drain has been a significant problem for every single revolutionary project, because that’s how human motivation works. The article is correct that directing the selfish aspects of humans towards the development and support of a revolutionary state has positive effects.
The ML countries are the only countries that have ever done anything remotely successful in breaking from global imperial capitalism
By… Becoming capitalists. Very 4D chess.
Not a single human society has ever industrialized without going through the capitalist mode of production. When you figure out how to do it, you let everyone know, cool? Rojava hasn’t done it, by the way.
USSR
Literally the definition of Soviet is council. The entire country was organized into democratic councils. Every single workplace was organized into a council. Yes, the workers were not allowed to plan quotas for the whole country, mostly because the workers in factories didn’t have access to all of the information about what all of their fellow countrymen needed. So there were other workers who were organized into other democratic councils and their job was to figure out what everyone in the country needed, and that information went up to the council of councils to determine the best way to meet all of the various short-term and long-term demands, of which there were no easy answers, so ANOTHER group of workers were organized into a council to research the question of how best to meet complex demands across a massive territory with a very low level of industry, which meant building the machines to build machines to build tools to build other machines.
And then the Nazis became ascendant, and the national security council made the decision to redirect production to prepare for war and the workers all had to follow those orders because the individual workers’ councils were not actually responsible for national security nor for analyzing geopolitics on the scale of 5-years or longer. And then the war hit and much of the country was forced to do whatever it took to survive.
And then immediately following the war the workers councils all worker together to rebuild the country. 8 years later, Kruschev took over, and he decided he wanted to create rich people again, so the whole ML thing sort of went out the window slowly as he and his cronies brought back liberalism, eroded the project of worker autonomy through councils, and ultimately just made everyone wage slaves while the oligarchs began to make plans for an alliance with the US to dominate the world and share all the wealth.
China
https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/
Billionaires do not control even half of the Chinese economy. They don’t own land in China. The government of the Communist Party is run through a hierarchy of councils, similar to the system of Soviets with a crucial difference - these councils spend a lot more time speaking directly with the masses and incorporating their feedback into their plans and adjusting based on the needs of the people.
In workplaces themselves, all state-owned enterprises have Staff and Worker Representative Congresses, and the state has now mandated that for most private companies. These congresses are democratic bodies that allow workers to participate in management decisions.
Both the USSR and China have had more democracy and more workplace democracy than any country in the Western sphere of influence ever.
DPRK
North Korea is literally still in the process of rebuilding its country after the USA bombed it to the literal stone age where Koreans had to live in caves to avoid napalm strafing because the Americans had literally destroyed every single building anyone could use to take cover in. The entire country was destroyed, every piece of infrastructure, every food source, every machine, every reserve of anything required for human life.
For the most part everyone in the country is a worker. There was no wealth to be had. In the present day, a number of “rich” North Koreans have accumulated stores of foreign capital through international trade, but domestically it’s not clear that there is a domestic wealth accumulation. You can’t own property. You can’t own companies. You can’t even really own cars. Everything is considered common property, managed by the state bureaucracy.
Work places are governed by workplace-specific councils that are part of the democratic centralist party. Quotas are still determined by the analyst workers groups, and generally for the good reason of managing scarcity of critical food, medicine, etc due to the crippling sanctions by the hegemonic West.
All of them
But again, we’re only talking about 75 years. It’s not that much time, especially when you consider a) war b) reconstruction c) Western siege d) literally no modern society has ever done it before and every country is trying to figure out how to function while also surviving in a world where the US will literally bomb your children, bomb your water supply, bomb your energy systems, bomb your schools, bomb your churches, kidnap your leaders, train/arm and deliver terrorists inside your country, and convince everyone else that if they trade with you they’ll bomb them, too.
The ML countries are the only countries that have ever done anything remotely successful in breaking from global imperial capitalism and creating the conditions to experiment with worker control of the entire country. It is a complex problem, not a switch. I know anarchists think everything can be prefigured, but anarchists are wrong.
famously super chill with calls for worker democracy, with super democratic and worker controlled councils that… Ultimately had to listen to the Supreme Soviets. Nice.
Hm…
Hmmm…
“Billionaires are actually good as long as China controls them!” The conclusion of that article even says that it’s good to ‘make room for the hyper selfish so that they don’t leave China and cause brain-drain’. Like holy shit.
By… Becoming capitalists. Very 4D chess.
Thank goodness you’re here to inform all us Anarchists how wrong we are. I’m sure we’d all be lost without your help.
Sure, Jan.
Correct, because the Supreme Soviet (singular) was accountable to the entire country whereas any given factory was only accountable to its local workers. The idea that a factory full of people who were peasant farmers 10 years ago could understand 100% of the impacts of their decisions on the health and wellbeing of millions of people across the country in a time before computers and digital information processing and communication is just silly.
Your counter examples don’t disprove my statement at all. Yes, there’s slavery in the Chinese system. That’s true. There’s also still more workplace democracy in China than any Western nation has ever had.
On the contrary. Billionaires are an emergent aspect of rapid industrialization. China has chosen to capture them instead of prevent them, because preventing them has deleterious effects on society.
Brain drain has been a significant problem for every single revolutionary project, because that’s how human motivation works. The article is correct that directing the selfish aspects of humans towards the development and support of a revolutionary state has positive effects.
Not a single human society has ever industrialized without going through the capitalist mode of production. When you figure out how to do it, you let everyone know, cool? Rojava hasn’t done it, by the way.