I build rockets that go on satellites and scientific missions. I enjoy my job; I find it extremely interesting and often quite fulfilling. In the grand scheme of things, I really wouldn’t change much. But like my boss said on the first day of the job, “This job is awesome, but it’s not worth doing for free.” If you told me I could still enjoy the same level of comfort at home that my job affords me, but I wouldn’t be paid, I would quit. I’d rather be at home reading, spending time with my family, playing around with my hobbies, etc.
My wife is a nurse. She loves her job, but she wouldn’t do it for free either. Her love for the job prevents her from quitting when she’s abused by the public for 12 hours, the pay makes her come in.
Some people are motivated by enjoyment alone to do jobs for free, but many are not. Or the thing they love doesn’t help society in a meaningful way. Or they just don’t want their hobby to turn into a job. I don’t think there’s a big enough overlap to have a functioning society.
Some yeah, but undoubtedly not enough to keep it working. For example i doubt that many people enjoy working at garbage disposable or basically any waste disposal. Of course these jobs should be fully operated by machines.
Or any assistant jobs in manufacturing or jobs that operate in shifts.
Uncle worked down at city dump. He loved it. He was kind of a garbologist in a way. He was fascinated by all the things folks threw away. Retired there too. Got a job right out of high school and worked until he was 62 and retired. Dude has so many “trash” sculptures. That is to say, sculptures made out of trash. I think you’d be surprised the jobs folks enjoy doing.
Do you think your uncle was in any way representative of the millions of people employed in waste disposal? The city of Birmingham’s bins have gone partially uncollected for over a year due to a dispute over pay. If waste disposal workers were, in general, doing it for the love of it, they’d surely be happy to do it for minimum wage.
Seems more likely your uncle was the odd one out, and most people need to be paid to do stinky work.
Because, I don’t know if you’re noticed, having a paying job is exhausting. The world setup in such a way that for a normal person, getting money means someone will suck every bit of life of you.
That’s, pardon the not nice metaphor, the difference between night of passionate sex and selling your ass so your pimp doesn’t beat you up. Both activities can be reduced to physical aspects, but not a lot of people will ask why one is desirable and the other is less so.
Because, I don’t know if you’re noticed, having a paying job is exhausting. The world setup in such a way that for a normal person, getting money means someone will suck every bit of life of you.
Yet most people have hobbies. So what you’re saying is that working as a garbage disposal person is not enjoyable enough to generally make people want to do it every day alongside having a regular job. They’d rather play video games, or write a Lemmy frontend, or something else that’s more fulfilling and doesn’t stink.
You changed the argument. That’s why it’s a bad argument. It’s not your fault though, most people argue that way. I should not comment, I think. Clearly, it’s not an enjoyable experience for me anymore. This was very enlightening. Thank you for this opportunity. Peace and blessings unto you and your family.
For example i doubt that many people enjoy working at garbage disposable or basically any waste disposal
Ehhh I bet you’d be wrong. Only anecdotal obviously, but at practice and games for the kids, a lot of dads just chat when there isnt much going on. A couple of them work for the local garbage company. One of them commented that he doesnt know how I stay inside and work all day, he really enjoys being outside with the trucks in the morning, then enjoying the afternoon outside with the kids. Another one is a mechanic for them, he always thought the trucks were cool, and he still enjoys working on them (though he will 100% tell you, in great detail, which manufacturers suck for various parts). Haven’t talked much with the last one about work, I think he is the only one just straight up doing it for money though.
And who knows, maybe the guy who likes being outside says that to be positive about his choices in life, but I see him at the park with the kids a lot, I’ve run into him heading out to the trails on his mountain bike, etc, so I believe him that he’s perfectly happy doing it.
Automation for unwanted tasks is great though, I agree, and where automation should be focused.
One of them commented that he doesnt know how I stay inside and work all day, he really enjoys being outside with the trucks in the morning, then enjoying the afternoon outside with the kids.
He could be taking the local kids out for hikes in nature instead - an activity which also gets him outside, provides a benefit to society, and lets him spend time with his kid and their friends. If he didn’t get paid, do you think he would prefer picking up garbage, or going on hikes with his kid? And even if he finds picking up trash meaningful now, do you think he started the job for the money, benefits, and schedule, and then learned to appreciate the good he was doing for the community after years of doing the work?
I’m not him so I couldn’t say, but considering I know he does volunteer cleanup days at the trails, I really dont think he looks down on garbage pickup the way you and others seem to be, that its only fulfilling because of money.
Tbh I’d kind of trust them more. Even if they got off thinking of my feet later (which, who cares, have at it), they are going to put a lot more effort and get a lot more knowledge than someone just doing it for the high billing rate, dont you think? And probably care more about the quality of my arch than the guy writing a prescription for orthotics because the manufacturer just bought him a nice dinner.
Just because they are pervs doesnt mean they’d be bad at it, I’d say they’d be even better at it than most. Wouldn’t you think?
I was also thinking that. As an example, retail work seems to me to be a kind of hell I don’t think I’d want to endure. But I know people that really enjoy it. So it’s probably true of any job you might think is only done by those that are forced to.
I think, if AI and robotics replace most jobs. After some years of pain when capitalists enjoy the infinite money glitch they’ve discovered, there will either be a revolution or a natural coming to understand that things need to work differently.
Now, understand this would only work if the vast majority of work could be done via automation. In this case the vast majority of people would be able to pursue what they enjoy, a bit like the star trek anti-economy. If all remaining required jobs were no longer filled by those that volunteered to do them, there would be some kind of draft (think like jury duty), where people able to do a job have a chance to be called in to do it for a few months then released back to pursue their own interests.
I’ve always seen capitalism as the carrot on a stick we need, when we need human productivity from the vast majority of people. If that’s no longer the case, it’s not a suitable solution and all the ideas like universal basic income are just stopgap measures to try to eke a bit more time out of the capitalist system that has already run past the point where we can keep enough people usefully employed to make it work. That’s almost certainly the reason we’re seeing the huge wealth disparity that increases. As the productivity per person goes up, all the increased value only ever rises to the top.
Oh I dunno, people are still inclined to uh probably murder and/or rape people for fun, steal things, commit any other unlawful acts society may deem against the law that doesn’t involve monetary situation. I understand money is the root of all evil but some people are evil just because.
Which jobs? Most of the time there are people enjoying something you wouldn’t expect
I build rockets that go on satellites and scientific missions. I enjoy my job; I find it extremely interesting and often quite fulfilling. In the grand scheme of things, I really wouldn’t change much. But like my boss said on the first day of the job, “This job is awesome, but it’s not worth doing for free.” If you told me I could still enjoy the same level of comfort at home that my job affords me, but I wouldn’t be paid, I would quit. I’d rather be at home reading, spending time with my family, playing around with my hobbies, etc.
My wife is a nurse. She loves her job, but she wouldn’t do it for free either. Her love for the job prevents her from quitting when she’s abused by the public for 12 hours, the pay makes her come in.
Some people are motivated by enjoyment alone to do jobs for free, but many are not. Or the thing they love doesn’t help society in a meaningful way. Or they just don’t want their hobby to turn into a job. I don’t think there’s a big enough overlap to have a functioning society.
I daresay there’s a few people out there who might enjoy going into the sewers to manually remove the fatbergs, but probably not enough.
Some yeah, but undoubtedly not enough to keep it working. For example i doubt that many people enjoy working at garbage disposable or basically any waste disposal. Of course these jobs should be fully operated by machines. Or any assistant jobs in manufacturing or jobs that operate in shifts.
Uncle worked down at city dump. He loved it. He was kind of a garbologist in a way. He was fascinated by all the things folks threw away. Retired there too. Got a job right out of high school and worked until he was 62 and retired. Dude has so many “trash” sculptures. That is to say, sculptures made out of trash. I think you’d be surprised the jobs folks enjoy doing.
Do you think your uncle was in any way representative of the millions of people employed in waste disposal? The city of Birmingham’s bins have gone partially uncollected for over a year due to a dispute over pay. If waste disposal workers were, in general, doing it for the love of it, they’d surely be happy to do it for minimum wage.
Seems more likely your uncle was the odd one out, and most people need to be paid to do stinky work.
I think that mostly happens because it’s a hard job and because people need money to live. If they didn’t they wouldn’t need more pay
If it’s so enjoyable, why don’t they do it as a hobby and have a different paying job?
To be clear, I think the answer is obviously that, to most people, it’s not that enjoyable.
Because, I don’t know if you’re noticed, having a paying job is exhausting. The world setup in such a way that for a normal person, getting money means someone will suck every bit of life of you.
That’s, pardon the not nice metaphor, the difference between night of passionate sex and selling your ass so your pimp doesn’t beat you up. Both activities can be reduced to physical aspects, but not a lot of people will ask why one is desirable and the other is less so.
Yet most people have hobbies. So what you’re saying is that working as a garbage disposal person is not enjoyable enough to generally make people want to do it every day alongside having a regular job. They’d rather play video games, or write a Lemmy frontend, or something else that’s more fulfilling and doesn’t stink.
Most people need to be paid to do work. Bad argument. I won’t be responding further, if this is how you argue.
If you agree most people need to be paid to do work, then we have no disagreement on the topic at hand, so there is no need to argue at all.
You changed the argument. That’s why it’s a bad argument. It’s not your fault though, most people argue that way. I should not comment, I think. Clearly, it’s not an enjoyable experience for me anymore. This was very enlightening. Thank you for this opportunity. Peace and blessings unto you and your family.
Ehhh I bet you’d be wrong. Only anecdotal obviously, but at practice and games for the kids, a lot of dads just chat when there isnt much going on. A couple of them work for the local garbage company. One of them commented that he doesnt know how I stay inside and work all day, he really enjoys being outside with the trucks in the morning, then enjoying the afternoon outside with the kids. Another one is a mechanic for them, he always thought the trucks were cool, and he still enjoys working on them (though he will 100% tell you, in great detail, which manufacturers suck for various parts). Haven’t talked much with the last one about work, I think he is the only one just straight up doing it for money though.
And who knows, maybe the guy who likes being outside says that to be positive about his choices in life, but I see him at the park with the kids a lot, I’ve run into him heading out to the trails on his mountain bike, etc, so I believe him that he’s perfectly happy doing it.
Automation for unwanted tasks is great though, I agree, and where automation should be focused.
He could be taking the local kids out for hikes in nature instead - an activity which also gets him outside, provides a benefit to society, and lets him spend time with his kid and their friends. If he didn’t get paid, do you think he would prefer picking up garbage, or going on hikes with his kid? And even if he finds picking up trash meaningful now, do you think he started the job for the money, benefits, and schedule, and then learned to appreciate the good he was doing for the community after years of doing the work?
I’m not him so I couldn’t say, but considering I know he does volunteer cleanup days at the trails, I really dont think he looks down on garbage pickup the way you and others seem to be, that its only fulfilling because of money.
I met a guy last week who was unusually passionate about water filtration and wanted to make a business globally. People are wonderfully weird.
Would you really trust podiatrists or proctologists who were in it just for the love of the game?
Tbh I’d kind of trust them more. Even if they got off thinking of my feet later (which, who cares, have at it), they are going to put a lot more effort and get a lot more knowledge than someone just doing it for the high billing rate, dont you think? And probably care more about the quality of my arch than the guy writing a prescription for orthotics because the manufacturer just bought him a nice dinner.
Just because they are pervs doesnt mean they’d be bad at it, I’d say they’d be even better at it than most. Wouldn’t you think?
They might not even be pervs, maybe they’re autistic and feet are their special interest.
On the contrary, I don’t trust any medical profession that is in it for the money.
I was also thinking that. As an example, retail work seems to me to be a kind of hell I don’t think I’d want to endure. But I know people that really enjoy it. So it’s probably true of any job you might think is only done by those that are forced to.
I think, if AI and robotics replace most jobs. After some years of pain when capitalists enjoy the infinite money glitch they’ve discovered, there will either be a revolution or a natural coming to understand that things need to work differently.
Now, understand this would only work if the vast majority of work could be done via automation. In this case the vast majority of people would be able to pursue what they enjoy, a bit like the star trek anti-economy. If all remaining required jobs were no longer filled by those that volunteered to do them, there would be some kind of draft (think like jury duty), where people able to do a job have a chance to be called in to do it for a few months then released back to pursue their own interests.
I’ve always seen capitalism as the carrot on a stick we need, when we need human productivity from the vast majority of people. If that’s no longer the case, it’s not a suitable solution and all the ideas like universal basic income are just stopgap measures to try to eke a bit more time out of the capitalist system that has already run past the point where we can keep enough people usefully employed to make it work. That’s almost certainly the reason we’re seeing the huge wealth disparity that increases. As the productivity per person goes up, all the increased value only ever rises to the top.
Bit of a mini rant there, sorry about that.
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I can’t imagine anyone enjoying being a correctional officer enough to do it for free. Or waste management (sewage).
Why do you assume that we’d need correctional officers in a world without money?
Because people murder each other for reasons other than money.
Oh I dunno, people are still inclined to uh probably murder and/or rape people for fun, steal things, commit any other unlawful acts society may deem against the law that doesn’t involve monetary situation. I understand money is the root of all evil but some people are evil just because.