If two parties agreed to it under no sense of duress then anyone who betrayed the mutual trust required is making a selfish choice.
If your feelings toward the agreement change you need to have a discussion with the other person.
You can say they’re antiquated for agreeing to it, you can even say that it’s an unrealistic expectation but if it’s consensually agreed to it’s about trust in your partner’s word
If two parties agreed to it under no sense of duress
As long as monogamy is considered the default and something most people wouldn’t ever consider getting away from, it’s impossible to enter a monogamous relationship absent coercion, because the coercion is societal.
Just like there’s no such thing as voluntary employment under a capitalist system, there’s no such thing as voluntary monogamy in a world dominated by Western, Bronze-age sexual politics.
I would never agree to those terms, so they don’t apply to me.
the problem is that society, states, and religion pushes those standards as if they are the only correct form of relationships. they are arbitrary rules based on ancient forms of control, where women were seen as free household labor and baby factories.
I empathize. Women are absolutely coerced into a role by modern society a habit we are sadly falling back into and that is horrible.
However, to say that no two people wish for a monogamous relationship and that trust ultimately doesn’t matter is a step too far for me. But I understand why someone would feel that way.
I too have seen people trapped in a loveless marriage.
still agree with that. it’s a stupid standard that hurts and shackles people rather than help them
so many loving relationships are torn because an affair, even an emotional one, even if one partner does noting but just develops feelings (100% out of their control), or worse, jealousy. all because monogamy is the standard.
ask elder people who were married through most of their lives and they all have stories of those hardships and how it hurt them.
wouldn’t it be nicer and simpler of cheating was viewed with the same severity as cheating in a diet? rather than being a devastating blow to a relationship and might even lead to severe social punishment?
We are animals we need connections and we aren’t always in control regarding what connections form.
So am I correct in saying under your framework monogamy can never be chosen freely? Or would it be at more accurate to say that if it was chosen it’ll be chosen via action and not agreement?
Humans can’t control what they feel, you cannot agree to not develop feelings or interests on other people, doing so is inherently dishonest, not to your partner but to yourself. and expecting it from your partner is equally unfair.
yes, two people can agree that they expect all their romantic and sexual needs to come from within the couple and promise not to engage romantically or sexually with other people. But if it wasn’t because it is the social norm, that would seem a strange and ridiculous expectation.
I myself am poly but I’ve been in a relationships where the other person wasn’t comfortable with it and agreed to monogamy and have been on the giving and receiving end of infidelity. As I’ve gotten older I’ve understood the damage I’ve done and how to properly engage with those feelings and have an open and honest discussion.
I think we actually agree more than it seemed. Feelings aren’t choices. Actions are. And the social punishment for failing at monogamy is often brutal and unfair. I just think two people can still freely say 'don’t act on it and if they both mean it, breaking that hurts. That’s all.
my main take (right now, it likely changed though the many conversations and branches this thread has) is that monogamy is the normarive standard pushed by religion and states. and everyone should at least question it. regardless if they end up agreeing on it or not.
I think one critique I would add is that your previous statement of it being a social normative is likely a lot more accurate than blaming the state or religion. There are a ton of different states and religions where monogamy is the social norm, and we can even see it reflected in nature as well.
Different relationship types are just better suited for certain animals in certain situations. Whether monogamy is still the most successful relationship type for modern humans is likely subjective.
If two parties agreed to it under no sense of duress then anyone who betrayed the mutual trust required is making a selfish choice.
If your feelings toward the agreement change you need to have a discussion with the other person.
You can say they’re antiquated for agreeing to it, you can even say that it’s an unrealistic expectation but if it’s consensually agreed to it’s about trust in your partner’s word
As long as monogamy is considered the default and something most people wouldn’t ever consider getting away from, it’s impossible to enter a monogamous relationship absent coercion, because the coercion is societal.
Just like there’s no such thing as voluntary employment under a capitalist system, there’s no such thing as voluntary monogamy in a world dominated by Western, Bronze-age sexual politics.
I would never agree to those terms, so they don’t apply to me.
the problem is that society, states, and religion pushes those standards as if they are the only correct form of relationships. they are arbitrary rules based on ancient forms of control, where women were seen as free household labor and baby factories.
I empathize. Women are absolutely coerced into a role by modern society a habit we are sadly falling back into and that is horrible.
However, to say that no two people wish for a monogamous relationship and that trust ultimately doesn’t matter is a step too far for me. But I understand why someone would feel that way.
I too have seen people trapped in a loveless marriage.
still agree with that. it’s a stupid standard that hurts and shackles people rather than help them
so many loving relationships are torn because an affair, even an emotional one, even if one partner does noting but just develops feelings (100% out of their control), or worse, jealousy. all because monogamy is the standard.
ask elder people who were married through most of their lives and they all have stories of those hardships and how it hurt them.
wouldn’t it be nicer and simpler of cheating was viewed with the same severity as cheating in a diet? rather than being a devastating blow to a relationship and might even lead to severe social punishment?
We are animals we need connections and we aren’t always in control regarding what connections form.
So am I correct in saying under your framework monogamy can never be chosen freely? Or would it be at more accurate to say that if it was chosen it’ll be chosen via action and not agreement?
Humans can’t control what they feel, you cannot agree to not develop feelings or interests on other people, doing so is inherently dishonest, not to your partner but to yourself. and expecting it from your partner is equally unfair.
yes, two people can agree that they expect all their romantic and sexual needs to come from within the couple and promise not to engage romantically or sexually with other people. But if it wasn’t because it is the social norm, that would seem a strange and ridiculous expectation.
I myself am poly but I’ve been in a relationships where the other person wasn’t comfortable with it and agreed to monogamy and have been on the giving and receiving end of infidelity. As I’ve gotten older I’ve understood the damage I’ve done and how to properly engage with those feelings and have an open and honest discussion.
I think we actually agree more than it seemed. Feelings aren’t choices. Actions are. And the social punishment for failing at monogamy is often brutal and unfair. I just think two people can still freely say 'don’t act on it and if they both mean it, breaking that hurts. That’s all.
my main take (right now, it likely changed though the many conversations and branches this thread has) is that monogamy is the normarive standard pushed by religion and states. and everyone should at least question it. regardless if they end up agreeing on it or not.
I think one critique I would add is that your previous statement of it being a social normative is likely a lot more accurate than blaming the state or religion. There are a ton of different states and religions where monogamy is the social norm, and we can even see it reflected in nature as well.
Different relationship types are just better suited for certain animals in certain situations. Whether monogamy is still the most successful relationship type for modern humans is likely subjective.
That we can agree on.