I also find it ironic how you managed to compare monogamy to slavery, and then proceed to call me the unserious one. I dont see how they are comparable at all.
How is a relationship wherein both people agree that, as long as they are together they only have sex with one another, and, if that agreement can no longer be honored, to go their separate ways, be unethical? Thats consent and boundary establishment and free association all the way through…
Social punishment for cheating, is often social isolation. I don’t think a minor victimless infraction warrant said punishment.
And the fact that there’s another person who has the right to consent on your own body sounds very iffy.
Also, we treat “monogamy” as a natural thing. it isn’t. if it was, there would be no divorces, breakups, or affairs.
Also the state and religions push monogamy as the upmost important relationship in someone’s life, rather than community, which atomises people and destroys communities with the modern invention of “nuclear family”. where evey need is comodified rather than being provided by a community.
I swear, erotador makes one small comment about being poly and it turns into a winding ass thread about the ethics of monogamy. I may be poly, but if I was in a relationship with the expectation of monogamy, I’d feel betrayed if they then broke that expectation without telling me. The problem wouldn’t be that they slept with someone, the problem would be that they lied. They would be free to be with whoever they want, but all of my relationships are contingent on open communication. If that communication isn’t there, then the agreement is broken.
I mentioned somewhere here that I consider putting such expectations on someone unethical. If my partner has an affair they would tell me and I would be happy for her or neutral, but if they were hiding it, and lying then there was no really a relationship to begin with, just a lie that should end sooner than later.
And in another thread, I said that the social punishment for people who cheat is too severe, often being social isolation. For an infraction I would personally consider as bad as cheating on a diet. For something that causes no harm to anyone.
i went into details on other aspects of monogamy I find internally unethical. Maybe cheating is bad, but at best it’s a victimless crime, as bad a cheating on a diet. rather than it being published with social isolation.
life it too short to set up relationships based on the denial of feeling for others.
That i don’t get at all. I really don’t think it’s too much to expect honesty from your significant other. In my world, that’s about the one person where you owe absolute honesty, all other relations yeah lying ain’t THAT big a deal.
Lying to yourself (breaking a diet) i agree is a victimless crime, but lying to others isn’t, as that is at the expense of the person being deceived. Lying to a random ass person is of course much less a deal than lying to your significant other, and in both situations it’s of course also dependant on the thing being lied about. A vegetarian would be very mad about being told a lie that the meal they were being served is vegetarian if it actually contained meat, and rightfully so imo.
In i think that might be getting to the core of it. It might not be a big deal to you, and that’s of course totally okay and your right and just as natural as any other proposition, BUT, failing to recognize that this might be important to the person, and then proceed to lie about that thing just because you yourself don’t think it’s that big a deal, is not okay in my book.
For me, it’s about respecting the internal worldview of the other person, and recognizing that it is just as important as my own. If something is a deal breaker for my partner, i don’t give a rats ass how important I think it is, what’s important is respecting that my partner cares a great deal about it. And if my partner cannot show the same towards me, that’s not a relationship i want to be in. And we do all have the right to say no to a relationship we don’t want, right?
Social punishment isnt inherent to the social relation we call monogamy, thats social norms, a connected but different thing. We can all agree social norms often disparage people, but again different conversation.
And its not ‘a fact’ that people in monogamous relations have consent over the other persons body, in fact, they only have consent over their own. If the other person doesnt want to do monogamy, they are free to pursue that type of relation on their own. Thats their choice, as it is the monogamous persons choice to not stay in a relationship with a partner that doesnt want a monogamous relationship. Insisting they have to be together, irregardles of the wishes of the other person, sounds unproductive and unhealthy to me.
“We treat monogamy as a natural thing” i dont. I recognize societal norms propogate one type of relationship, but that is once again a different conversation than the supposed ethicalness of a specific social dynamic. The dynamic an sich is different from the norms around it.
Dont let your grievences with the system become judgements of the people caught within.
I never called you unethical.
I also find it ironic how you managed to compare monogamy to slavery, and then proceed to call me the unserious one. I dont see how they are comparable at all.
How is a relationship wherein both people agree that, as long as they are together they only have sex with one another, and, if that agreement can no longer be honored, to go their separate ways, be unethical? Thats consent and boundary establishment and free association all the way through…
Social punishment for cheating, is often social isolation. I don’t think a minor victimless infraction warrant said punishment.
And the fact that there’s another person who has the right to consent on your own body sounds very iffy.
Also, we treat “monogamy” as a natural thing. it isn’t. if it was, there would be no divorces, breakups, or affairs.
Also the state and religions push monogamy as the upmost important relationship in someone’s life, rather than community, which atomises people and destroys communities with the modern invention of “nuclear family”. where evey need is comodified rather than being provided by a community.
I swear, erotador makes one small comment about being poly and it turns into a winding ass thread about the ethics of monogamy. I may be poly, but if I was in a relationship with the expectation of monogamy, I’d feel betrayed if they then broke that expectation without telling me. The problem wouldn’t be that they slept with someone, the problem would be that they lied. They would be free to be with whoever they want, but all of my relationships are contingent on open communication. If that communication isn’t there, then the agreement is broken.
I mentioned somewhere here that I consider putting such expectations on someone unethical. If my partner has an affair they would tell me and I would be happy for her or neutral, but if they were hiding it, and lying then there was no really a relationship to begin with, just a lie that should end sooner than later.
And in another thread, I said that the social punishment for people who cheat is too severe, often being social isolation. For an infraction I would personally consider as bad as cheating on a diet. For something that causes no harm to anyone.
Do you actually think its unethical to expect people not to lie? Trying to understand here, very far from my own set of beliefs :)
just saying, that if they need to lie to fulfill their needs, then there isn’t a relationship to begin with.
Makes sense, just your wording that confused me
i went into details on other aspects of monogamy I find internally unethical. Maybe cheating is bad, but at best it’s a victimless crime, as bad a cheating on a diet. rather than it being published with social isolation.
life it too short to set up relationships based on the denial of feeling for others.
That i don’t get at all. I really don’t think it’s too much to expect honesty from your significant other. In my world, that’s about the one person where you owe absolute honesty, all other relations yeah lying ain’t THAT big a deal.
Lying to yourself (breaking a diet) i agree is a victimless crime, but lying to others isn’t, as that is at the expense of the person being deceived. Lying to a random ass person is of course much less a deal than lying to your significant other, and in both situations it’s of course also dependant on the thing being lied about. A vegetarian would be very mad about being told a lie that the meal they were being served is vegetarian if it actually contained meat, and rightfully so imo.
In i think that might be getting to the core of it. It might not be a big deal to you, and that’s of course totally okay and your right and just as natural as any other proposition, BUT, failing to recognize that this might be important to the person, and then proceed to lie about that thing just because you yourself don’t think it’s that big a deal, is not okay in my book.
For me, it’s about respecting the internal worldview of the other person, and recognizing that it is just as important as my own. If something is a deal breaker for my partner, i don’t give a rats ass how important I think it is, what’s important is respecting that my partner cares a great deal about it. And if my partner cannot show the same towards me, that’s not a relationship i want to be in. And we do all have the right to say no to a relationship we don’t want, right?
Social punishment isnt inherent to the social relation we call monogamy, thats social norms, a connected but different thing. We can all agree social norms often disparage people, but again different conversation.
And its not ‘a fact’ that people in monogamous relations have consent over the other persons body, in fact, they only have consent over their own. If the other person doesnt want to do monogamy, they are free to pursue that type of relation on their own. Thats their choice, as it is the monogamous persons choice to not stay in a relationship with a partner that doesnt want a monogamous relationship. Insisting they have to be together, irregardles of the wishes of the other person, sounds unproductive and unhealthy to me.
“We treat monogamy as a natural thing” i dont. I recognize societal norms propogate one type of relationship, but that is once again a different conversation than the supposed ethicalness of a specific social dynamic. The dynamic an sich is different from the norms around it.
Dont let your grievences with the system become judgements of the people caught within.