• Comrade_Spood@quokk.au
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    148
    ·
    edit-2
    26 days ago

    Thats because the residents didnt choose to have their town be economically dependent on tourism. Tourist economies tend to really fuck over local residents. Be it insane housing prices due to airbnbs. Or lack of necessities like grocery stores, affordable restuarants, etc due to all the stores being knick-knack and commodity shops or gentrified tourist centered restaurants. Lack of decent jobs due to everything being targeted towards tourism (really shitty if its seasonal tourism, cause then you are out of the job for the off season). Not to mention having to deal with the roads being congested with tourists, be they pedestrians or drivers. Plus so so so much more. My take, a place should NEVER base its economy around tourism. I got no problem with tourism, but it should be a byproduct or consequence of having a place worth visiting. Not the whole point of the town existing. An economy around tourism is like an economy built around oil. Yeah its a great boost to income for the place, but it comes at the expensive of QoL for the residents, and eventually the well will dry up and youll have nothing to fall back on.

    • titanicx@lemmy.zip
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      38
      ·
      26 days ago

      There are so many places that without tourism, there isn’t a reason to be there. I drive the Western US pretty thoroughly and the difference between small towns where tourists go, and those that have nothing, is stark. They love to complain about it, and hate on tourists, but damn do they want that money. You go am hour down the road and get to the next town and it’s dead, no grocery stores, no real business, most the main streets are boarded up from failed attempts at building something. People are fucking stupid, you have have some reason your town exists, or you end up with those towns in Wyoming I drive through that have 20 population, and won’t last another generation.

      • 0_o7@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        20
        ·
        26 days ago

        What a strange take. The people that run businesses are almost never the entirety of the town. If they are, you’re likely in a theme park or a carnival. And of course the businesses want your money.

        Have you interacted with someone that doesn’t run a business there?

        • titanicx@lemmy.zip
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          17
          ·
          26 days ago

          Yes, but you do realize that the people that live there work at those businesses. If tourism doesn’t exist in those areas, those jobs that they rely on wouldn’t exist. You don’t have to own a business to profit from it. In many of those areas, there isn’t any other real industry.

          • Fedegenerate@fedinsfw.app
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            9
            ·
            edit-2
            26 days ago

            Yes, but you do realize that the people that live there work at those businesses. If tourism doesn’t exist in those areas, those jobs that they rely on wouldn’t exist.

            Trickle down economics on Lemmy, Christ.

            I suppose I should expand on that, my understanding of trickle down systems are those that benefit the rich at the expense of their poor. My argument for why it benefits the rich: your comment on the benefits of tourism. My arguments why those benefits come at the expense of the poor: their comment listing all the expenses those benefits come at.

            • titanicx@lemmy.zip
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              26 days ago

              You know any of those people can start a business a well. Right. Right? It’s not about trickle down. It’s about people choosing A job. Shit I got tired of working for people years ago and started my own company. At one point I couldn’t afford a screw to finish a job. I had to talk a Lowe’s employee into letting me have one. Last year I made a pretty great wage. I’m not rich, but I’m not suffering any more. Maybe. Just maybe, get off Lemmy, and everything else and stop feeling sorry for yourself. No one is going to hand you shit. Tourist town, big city. Small town, whatever.

                • titanicx@lemmy.zip
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  26 days ago

                  That’s my point. I started mine with about 100$. If you can’t get that. Go sell Kool aid. Shit it you can’t afford that ask anyone for a dollar, go buy some, and start making something. People want to be handed everything.

              • Fedegenerate@fedinsfw.app
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                4
                ·
                edit-2
                26 days ago

                That’s a nice anecdote, but it’s not the argument for tourist towns you think it is. You’re merely arguing that they should aspire to join the ranks of the advantaged, at the expense of the poor. Not that the rich aren’t advantaged at the expense of the poor.

                “Just start a business lol” is also an argument used to defend trickle down economics. But you know as well as I, it’s no panacea.

                Just maybe, get off Lemmy, and everything else and stop feeling sorry for yourself. No one is going to hand you shit.

                How arrogantly presumptive of you. If I told you I’m comfortable, and have no want or need for people to “hand me shit”, would you respect my opinion more? Would you like to try again without the failed economic policy, anecdotal non-sequitors, or the classist ad-hominems?

                • titanicx@lemmy.zip
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  26 days ago

                  Dude let me tell you this. I was poor like dirt poor for years. I’ve been homeless with my kids more than once. I have suffered I have seen it all I have been to the food banks I have relied on churches and people to pay my rent just so I could have a place to live. Don’t fucking talk to me about being poor and being privileged and suffering. Shit when I started my business I literally quit my job took my paycheck that I had for 2 weeks and that’s what I had for my business and pay my rent and to pay my bills I didn’t even own a car when I started my business. So don’t fucking tell me what a poor person can or cannot do if that person is fucking motivated and can actually get off their fucking ass still fucking do it. I come from a small goddamn town I know what it’s like to live in a small town. Tourist towns are no different than anywhere else they just have more opportunity to have people show up. Shit if I lived in a tourist town I’d be out there selling Kool-Aid on the side of the road I’d be making t-shirts and printing them. Depending on where I was at I’d be doing something local and making people hand over money hand over fist. You don’t got to be privileged you don’t got to do anything you just got to understand that you’re hungry and that you got a fucking make money. People are so fucking privileged they don’t know how to do shit anymore. Fuck all of you people that think they got to be handed everything fuck all you people that think that you got to be fucking rich to have anything in your fucking life. you guys are all just fucking assholes when it comes down to it. And fuck you people that live in tourist towns that think you would be better off without those fucking tourists and their deep pockets coming through. I’ve seen all of the towns in Utah Wyoming Nevada Colorado Idaho Montana Arizona New Mexico that don’t have tourism industries those are the poorest fucking towns in the world and there ain’t shit to do in any of them and there ain’t fucking work to find anywhere. I literally drive through towns where there’s two families and that’s the population of the fucking town. Because nobody lives there anymore because every fucking person knows they have to move because you have to feed your family you have to have a place to live you don’t just get handed something shit even if you handed a house how the fuck are you going to pay for it when there’s nobody else to bring in any sort of money. Fucking people don’t know shit and it’s fucking hilarious thinking that they could go out and do any of that fucking shit without that money coming into their fucking pockets. It’s not about being rich it’s not about the people that own the businesses God damn all the people work in the cashiers all the fucking people working at the fast food places all the people waiting tables at all those places they’re making fucking money they got money coming in and they get paid better than most of the people in the big cities get fucking paid. Yeah they’re having issues paying the rent but guess what everybody in the cities are having issues paying the rent also people are having to live with other people because rent has gone so fucking high and that’s because greedy fucking people at the top are charging more and more and more and they don’t fucking care anymore. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t fight back that doesn’t mean that we can’t grab a little bit of that money for ourselves and try to fucking make as much money as possible. So fuck you guys for thinking that you can’t fucking do it fuck you guys for thinking it’s trickle down economy shit it ain’t trickle down economy it’s grab whatever the fuck you can economy if that starts as trickle down and then you end up making money out of it that’s what it’s all fucking about.

                  • Fedegenerate@fedinsfw.app
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    3
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    25 days ago

                    TL;Dr: you: lots of people gave me lots of handouts, I’m good and should be listened to. Also you: other people just want handouts, they’re bad and shouldn’t be listened to. Your position is very silly.

                    Dude let me tell you this. I was poor like dirt poor for years. I’ve been homeless with my kids more than once. I have suffered I have seen it all I have been to the food banks I have relied on churches and people to pay my rent just so I could have a place to live.

                    TL;Dr? Your wall of text started with this anecdotal non-sequitor. I can’t imagine it gets better from there, and you’ve lost the benefit of the doubt.

                    You aren’t describing a particularly awesome system btw: “dude, things are so good, I’ve been homeless at least twice, I couldn’t afford food at one point and I needed people to hand me shit (like food and rent)… Let me tell you how much other people want them to be handed shit.” That wonderful bit of hypocrisy is just the first few sentences. Here’s my advice: introspect.

                    Anyway, did you, at any point, argue I was wrong about tourist towns? I suspect not, you haven’t yet.

                    I suppose I should expand on that, my understanding of trickle down systems are those that benefit the rich at the expense of their poor. My argument for why it benefits the rich: your comment on the benefits of tourism. My arguments why those benefits come at the expense of the poor: their comment listing all the expenses those benefits come at [and now you, telling me you were homeless, and needed people to hand you shit to survive].

                    I have asked, and you have failed already. But could you do it without the failed economic policy, the anecdotal non-sequitors, or the classist ad-hominems this time? I’m adding being a ladder puller to the list. Who knows what other nonsense your comment was full of. Generally it’s a request to drop the nonsense please.

                    Just an FYI, “Pull yourself up by bootstraps” is a common defence of trickle down economics. That’s why I mocked your “just start a business lol” argument. It’s silly and you should feel silly.

              • Baŝto@discuss.tchncs.de
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                25 days ago

                You still need demand. You can’t just start a company that does whatever you wanna work in whereever you want. Though there are things you can do pretty much everywhere as long you have electricity and internet

          • baines@lemmy.cafe
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            9
            ·
            edit-2
            26 days ago

            only because tourism in these places crowds out all other industry, often on purpose

            gotta keep local labor cheep for profits

            • titanicx@lemmy.zip
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              26 days ago

              What industry happens in those areas? Would you prefer a factory, maybe an oil rig. Or how about a mine. Great alternatives …

              • baines@lemmy.cafe
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                9
                ·
                edit-2
                26 days ago

                you ever actually live in a ‘tourist’ town?

                name it

                Hawaii had a major IT project to be an international hub, thousands of jobs. This was early 2000s. State tourism lobby killed it.

                  • baines@lemmy.cafe
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    7
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    26 days ago

                    the original post and the problems the first reply is talking about is very pertinent to Hawaii

                    you asked for an example, this is a real directly illustrative one

                    the argument was something along the lines of development harming visual appeal (while having 10 story+ apartments in Waikiki)

                    but it was and always is about cheap local labor to exploit

                    tourism does not help locals any more than trickle down economics helps the average citizen

          • EldritchFemininity@lemmy.blahaj.zone
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            7
            ·
            25 days ago

            In many of those areas, there isn’t any other real industry.

            And this is the crux of the issue people have with tourist towns as well. Tourism as an industry drives up CoL through inflated property values and increased prices for basic essentials but is a low wage industry.

            An economy needs money to flow, but you need more than a low wage industry for a healthy area. Otherwise, you’ve basically just reinvented serfdom with a different product.

      • happydoors@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        11
        ·
        26 days ago

        Reminds me of when I ran into some international students and they asked me “what is in Indiana? Who would ever live there?” Sometimes people just are born or end up places and social ties, debt, or whatever keeps them there. Moving is easy for some, remarkably hard for others.

        • Tiral@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          25 days ago

          Sure, but also people just like it. I live in Illinois about 2.5 hours out of Chicago and I love it. We have all 4 seasons, the population is roughly 400k, we have basically everything a major city has, way less traffic, cost of living is minimal (comparatively), I can travel 10 miles out and it’s farmland where we can run ATVs and dirt bikes, hunting (not my thing personally), you can easily go into Chicago if there’s a huge concert or event (we get a lot locally too).

          I get that it isn’t everyone’s thing with snowing a few times a year, or you’re not an hour from a beach. But that would eventually get old after a while I’m sure.

          Just saying there are plenty of reasons to pick “why would you live there” places.

      • baines@lemmy.cafe
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        ·
        26 days ago

        once again the common brain dead take

        it never fails

        this idiot right here is why locals hate tourists

          • baines@lemmy.cafe
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            8
            ·
            edit-2
            26 days ago

            it’s already been made by others with obvious experience living there, you replied to it even

            then you handwaved all local suffering away with the argument locals should be thankful because money

            big douche energy there

                • titanicx@lemmy.zip
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  ·
                  26 days ago

                  Everyone needs a job to survive in this world. Workout actually, yes. Because it’s not a problem. It’s people complaining about their way of life. Most would not be able to live in those areas without something like that.

                  • baines@lemmy.cafe
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    5
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    26 days ago

                    false equivalency much?

                    and most still can’t live there anyway, they just have a job while not being able to afford living there

                    almost like you have zero actual experience living in a tourist town and ignored the point in the first post in favor of vomiting your opinion all over the place

                    anyway until you either admit you have no idea what you are talking about personally other than being a tourist or name an actual city you lived in with real direct experiences I’m done

      • FudgyMcTubbs@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        24 days ago

        Man, I had to drive from Cody to Casper back in 2013 or so… Shoshoni Wyoming looks like the zombie apocalypse already came and went. Like holy shit, what did those folks do to deserve to be stuck living there?

    • Elting@piefed.social
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      26 days ago

      I definitely have some contempt for the fudgies but it aint all that bad. There is more nuance here to how tourist towns go about managing their population booms.

      • Comrade_Spood@quokk.au
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        13
        ·
        26 days ago

        I live in a state that is very tourism centered, and I’ve lived in and near towns and cities that are tourist economies or trying to be. Speaking from that experience, whatever good they bring is outweighed by the problems they cause. Tourism is nuanced, but tourism economies I don’t feel are. I’ve never once heard a resident of a tourist town talk positively of tourism unless they are a business owner or otherwise have some stake in the game, like landlords or airbnd owners.

        • Elting@piefed.social
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          7
          ·
          edit-2
          26 days ago

          Some economies can naturally gravitate towards tourism without local intent. If your town is building kitsch then you are probably on the sour end of that spectrum. Here tourism is inevitable, its in the lay of the land. Our town doesnt suck at managing it though, no more than two air bnbs per city block downtown. We have plenty of Inns and Hotels built out to accommodate for short term housing so tourists aren’t competing against locals for space. I would also argue (all be it with some bias) that renting out short term rooms is distinct from being a landlord in a few key ways. A lot more time and effort and care is required from an innkeeper than a landlord, they provide real service to somebody rather than just cornering a resource to sell it back to the community.

          • Comrade_Spood@quokk.au
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            6
            ·
            26 days ago

            Fair. Here, they lean way into it. “Vacation land” being the state motto. Camden, Bar Harbor, and Ogunquit being the three worst towns that I am aware of in terms of tourism, but theres plenty more. Lots of homes here are owned by snowbirds (rich people who own summer homes up here and then live in their homes in Florida or whatever in the winter). The economy is already fucked because of the large elderly population, and then its further fucked by all these rich vacationers who each up the housing. All the recreational stuff around here is very tourist adjacent or targeted like skiing, hunting, hiking, etc. Which the lack of third spaces, non-outdoor recreational activities, and most industry being catered to sustaining the elderly or tourists leads to all the young people moving out of state for better opportunities. Which obviously just makes all these problems worse. The place I live, most of the housing is owned by like one or two huge landlord companies too.

            That is to say though, I feel like an economy that drifts to tourism like you say, while yes is a tourism economy, I feel it also kinda leans into tourism as a byproduct rather than the goal. Unless you feel thats not the case, idk.

            • JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              26 days ago

              I had a funny feeling you were talking about Maine. Hi from Boothbay, another tourist shit hole

            • Elting@piefed.social
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              edit-2
              26 days ago

              Yeah we have a disproportionately elderly population and many snowbirds too. Our economy used to be highly industrial, and we do still have a lot of operational factories outside of town which provide a lot of stability for the winter months. We also have a huge state park which soaks up a lot of the tourists as they go camp there instead of staying in town, as well as being a favorite spot for locals to go. If we didn’t have these things then tourism would be a lot more damaging to the area.

    • Dr. Moose@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      edit-2
      25 days ago

      As opposed to economic and cultural deserts? Just look at US’ midwest: no tourism, no anything - just misery. Now take a look at tourist areas even in developing countries that are far ahead of the richest country in the world because people are not fucking stupid there and choose prosperity over exclusivity.

      • Comrade_Spood@quokk.au
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        10
        ·
        25 days ago

        Somebody got a business degree from their local community college (no disrespect to community colleges, major disrespect to business majors). You’re like a rich man telling the poor to count their blessings and pull themselves up by the bootstraps. Fuck off and maybe learn to read before you go trying to lecture me about how great living in a tourist economy is.

        • Dr. Moose@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          25 days ago

          Nope started with nothing but thousands bucks and a laptop, traveled all around the world working remotely and saw how life changing tourism is all around the world and how many wonderful people work in tourism and most importantly how connecting tourism is in our society. You are free to disagree with me but I gain nothing for argueing in favor of tourism (I don’t work in this niche) other than fight against this injustice and misinformation hateful losers spread online to justify their own bigotry.

          • Comrade_Spood@quokk.au
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            7
            ·
            25 days ago

            Wow, please continue to tell the person living paycheck to paycheck, working in houseless services, living in tourist town, and has never had the money to even step foot outside of New England, how great tourism is. And you very much have stake in the game Mr. “I’ve travelled the world.” You’re literally the person the economy of these places is catering to.

      • Warl0k3@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        edit-2
        25 days ago

        no anything

        Well besides absolute shitloads of farms, which some correct people might consider less than glamorous but which still have to go somewhere - and which every developing nation also needs many of. Seriously, this is a deeply apples-to-things-that-aren’t-apples comparison.