Nothing is changing anyway. I’m not parroting propaganda, I’ve had 45 years to come to my OWN conclusions.
The only thing that will fix this world is if all the governments are completely reformed to work for the people, and combined into one world government so we can work together, or abolish all governments beyond the local level.
time alone doesn’t inoculate you from propaganda. referring to events you didn’t witness firsthand, in a country you don’t live in, with certainty about what you saw on western news – that’s not firsthand knowledge, it’s a mediated narrative you’ve absorbed as fact. propaganda doesn’t require lies; it just needs selective framing that feeds your outrage. wanting all governments to “burn to the ground” isn’t independent thinking – it’s a script that’s been handed to you, and your inability to see that is exactly how propaganda works.
I didn’t. I’ve been employed and worked with people who saw that shit first hand. I saw that shit second hand on the news.
There’s a ton of propaganda over what happened during those weeks. I am repeating first hand accounts. The people who told me what they saw are either really good liars, because they couldn’t have known each other in the US, or they told me what they saw.
I’ve not been handed a script, the fact that you think I have indicates that there is a fundamental problem with the system
you trust a handful of self-selected people who told you stories you already wanted to believe. that’s not evidence – it’s confirmation bias. first-hand accounts can be wrong, embellished, or shaped by their own trauma and exposure to propaganda before they ever left. you’re not a historian or a judge; you’re someone who listened to stories that matched what you saw on tv and decided they must be the whole truth. the fact that you can’t imagine any other explanation – that you’re certain everyone who disagrees is just “the system” lying to you – is the fundamental problem. that’s exactly what being propagandized looks like from the inside.
Self selected? Tell me you know nothing of getting a job in the US without telling me you’ve never applied for a job in the US.
I have listened to the other side, and their version is “nothing happened, it was all peaceful, but there were some criminals that needed to be arrested, and disappeared.”
I’ll believe real people when they tell me why they left China even though they still own property there.
you’re doing it again. you’re assuming that just because someone has a job in the us and spoke to you, they’re automatically a credible, unbiased source. that’s not how memory, trauma, or propaganda work. people can genuinely believe what they’re saying and still be wrong – also still be repeating a version of events shaped by decades of exile and media reinforcement.
you also keep framing this as “real people” vs. “the other side,” as if the chinese government’s official account is the only alternative to fallible informants. that’s a false choice. there are historians, journalists, and researchers who don’t work for either the ccp or the us government and who have pieced together more nuanced versions than either “nothing happened” or the narrative you’re holding onto and they’re very easy to find.
the fact that you won’t entertain the possibility that your sources might be incomplete or shaped by their own biases – and instead mock anyone who questions you as ignorant of how jobs work – says you’re not actually weighing evidence. you’re defending an identity. and that’s what someone who’s been propagandized does, whether they realize it or not.
Tell me you didn’t understand what I said, without telling me you didn’t understand what I said.
Congratulations you have now convinced me that the reason people hate MLers isn’t because they think they don’t like communism. It’s because all of you are illiterate assholes.
The PRC is already such a state, and has been so since 1949. The establishment of socialism is via revolutionary means. The path forward is for the creation of more socialist states, not overthrowing existing ones.
The PRC only exists in Taiwan. The CCP is exporting their version of authoritarianism, just like the US and Russian Federation are doing with their versions.
Since all three exist that is proof that all governments will go authoritarian once they have enough power. Hence, reform all governments into a single unified world government that is focused on people not power, or abolish all high level government.
The PRC only exists in the rump state that massacred twelve thousand people for being suspected communist sympathizers and enacted forty years of martial law? Those are your guys? Jesus christ lmao
No, the capitalist dictatorship in Taiwan that murdered all of the communists and local resistance when the KMT moved in in the White Terror isn’t anywhere close to a People’s Republic.
The CCP is exporting their version of authoritarianism, just like the US and Russian Federation are doing with their versions.
Utter nonsense. The CPC is the party in power in a socialist state, where the working classes use their authority against capitalists. The US Empire and the Russian Federation are both dictatorships of capital, like Taiwan, where authority is wielded against the working classes.
Since all three exist that is proof that all governments will go authoritarian once they have enough power. Hence, reform all governments into a single unified world government that is focused on people not power, or abolish all high level government.
Nonsense. All states wield authority, this is partially correct, but they do so in service of a definite class. In the PRC, those classes are the working classes.
Marx would agree with me here.
No he would not, Marx viewed authority by its class character, not in a liberal view that divorces the state from class struggle. Don’t invoke Marx while erasing class struggle.
You have a very strange definition of socialism. The CCP is doing their own thing that looks a hell of a lot like properly regulated capitalism. They also have created a digital scanscape and have all the big brother surveillance shit. They have teams of hackers that the state employs to constantly try to attack everyone else. They are exporting their version of authoritarianism with their tools. If the CCP were for the working class, they wouldn’t have the literal thieves that are billionaires.
Not at all. Socialism is a transitional status between capitalism and communism, where the proletariat has siezed state power and public ownership is the principal aspect of the economy. This is absolutely true of the PRC.
The CCP is doing their own thing that looks a hell of a lot like properly regulated capitalism.
No? Private ownership is secondary to public, and is relegated to small/medium firms, as well as highly competitive, non-critical industries like tech. The system of the PRC is typically described as a Socialist Market Economy. The commanding heights of the economy are overwhelmingly publicly owned, while private ownership typically is found in secondary industries and highly competitive non-critical industries like tech. The CPC often has controlling shares of private companies as well, especially the larger ones. As these private firms grow, they are socialized and often folded into the public sector. This is why public ownership is the principal aspect of the economy, and determines the nature of the PRC’s path on the socialist road.
See also the stages of socialism presented by Chinese economists, like Cheng Enfu:
The character of the state is a dictatorship of the proletariat. Whole-Process People’s Democracy is the form of consultative democracy in China. Local candidates are directly elected, and then these ladder upwards in indirect elections. The top conducts many surveys and tries to find policy from the people via the Mass Line, while practicing democratic centralism and maintaining the ability to quickly respond to changing conditions. Long-term policy change is slow but positive as consensus is built, short-term crisis is quickly adapted to as needed.
Also, it’s the Communist Party of China, not Chinese Communist Party. The format “CP_” is the internationalist form, like CPRF. “CCP” draws on western orientalist views.
They also have created a digital scanscape and have all the big brother surveillance shit.
Every existing socialist state is still a part of ongoing class struggle, and needs to develop tools to keep capitalists suppressed and prevent them from developing political power.
They have teams of hackers that the state employs to constantly try to attack everyone else.
Genuinely confused by this one, the CPC isn’t attacking everyone. They do have intelligence gathering, like all states do.
They are exporting their version of authoritarianism with their tools.
The CPC isn’t exporting socialism (or “authoritarianism,” which is a meaningless term). This is one part that Marxists sometimes do criticize China for. The CPC focuses on the development of China, and favorable relations with communist parties and existing socialist states. They do not export revolution like the USSR did.
I expect better of you Cowbee.
I don’t know what you mean by this either. I have the standard Marxist-Leninist take on the PRC, because I read a good deal of Marxist-Leninist theory and organize with Marxist-Leninists.
Then the standard ML take is actively pro authoritarian and actively acting as class traitors.
The standard ML take is the standard Marxist take, that the working classes should wield the power of the state to collectivize production and distribution and prevent capitalists from taking political power. I don’t know what you mean by “acting as class traitors,” the working classes govern China and that’s a good thing.
The fact that you don’t know about the teams of hackers that actively attack every other developed countries during Chinese timezones, is telling.
Not really. You gave no evidence of this, and I already stated that the PRC does do intelligence gathering on imperialist countries, as all geopolitical adversaries do. The CPC would be foolish not to.
I guess I have to stop thinking of you as a friend of the masses.
I don’t see why the fact that I support socialism and socialist countries contradicts me being a friend to the working classes. You never countered any of my points, meaning it’s extremely unclear what actual problem you have with socialist China at a concrete level.
If the working classes ruled the government there would be no billionaires. They are not socialists, they are capitalist reformers at best. I will admit that China at least has the balls to prosecute some of the Great Thieves, but they allow them to become Great Thieves and don’t stop the theft of the working class.
If that is the standard ML take, then ML are capitalist simps.
Nothing is changing anyway. I’m not parroting propaganda, I’ve had 45 years to come to my OWN conclusions.
The only thing that will fix this world is if all the governments are completely reformed to work for the people, and combined into one world government so we can work together, or abolish all governments beyond the local level.
time alone doesn’t inoculate you from propaganda. referring to events you didn’t witness firsthand, in a country you don’t live in, with certainty about what you saw on western news – that’s not firsthand knowledge, it’s a mediated narrative you’ve absorbed as fact. propaganda doesn’t require lies; it just needs selective framing that feeds your outrage. wanting all governments to “burn to the ground” isn’t independent thinking – it’s a script that’s been handed to you, and your inability to see that is exactly how propaganda works.
I didn’t. I’ve been employed and worked with people who saw that shit first hand. I saw that shit second hand on the news.
There’s a ton of propaganda over what happened during those weeks. I am repeating first hand accounts. The people who told me what they saw are either really good liars, because they couldn’t have known each other in the US, or they told me what they saw.
I’ve not been handed a script, the fact that you think I have indicates that there is a fundamental problem with the system
you trust a handful of self-selected people who told you stories you already wanted to believe. that’s not evidence – it’s confirmation bias. first-hand accounts can be wrong, embellished, or shaped by their own trauma and exposure to propaganda before they ever left. you’re not a historian or a judge; you’re someone who listened to stories that matched what you saw on tv and decided they must be the whole truth. the fact that you can’t imagine any other explanation – that you’re certain everyone who disagrees is just “the system” lying to you – is the fundamental problem. that’s exactly what being propagandized looks like from the inside.
Self selected? Tell me you know nothing of getting a job in the US without telling me you’ve never applied for a job in the US.
I have listened to the other side, and their version is “nothing happened, it was all peaceful, but there were some criminals that needed to be arrested, and disappeared.”
I’ll believe real people when they tell me why they left China even though they still own property there.
you’re doing it again. you’re assuming that just because someone has a job in the us and spoke to you, they’re automatically a credible, unbiased source. that’s not how memory, trauma, or propaganda work. people can genuinely believe what they’re saying and still be wrong – also still be repeating a version of events shaped by decades of exile and media reinforcement.
you also keep framing this as “real people” vs. “the other side,” as if the chinese government’s official account is the only alternative to fallible informants. that’s a false choice. there are historians, journalists, and researchers who don’t work for either the ccp or the us government and who have pieced together more nuanced versions than either “nothing happened” or the narrative you’re holding onto and they’re very easy to find.
the fact that you won’t entertain the possibility that your sources might be incomplete or shaped by their own biases – and instead mock anyone who questions you as ignorant of how jobs work – says you’re not actually weighing evidence. you’re defending an identity. and that’s what someone who’s been propagandized does, whether they realize it or not.
Tell me you didn’t understand what I said, without telling me you didn’t understand what I said.
Congratulations you have now convinced me that the reason people hate MLers isn’t because they think they don’t like communism. It’s because all of you are illiterate assholes.
What an enormous coincidence that you seem to encounter illiterate assholes everywhere you go
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The PRC is already such a state, and has been so since 1949. The establishment of socialism is via revolutionary means. The path forward is for the creation of more socialist states, not overthrowing existing ones.
The PRC only exists in Taiwan. The CCP is exporting their version of authoritarianism, just like the US and Russian Federation are doing with their versions.
Since all three exist that is proof that all governments will go authoritarian once they have enough power. Hence, reform all governments into a single unified world government that is focused on people not power, or abolish all high level government.
Marx would agree with me here.
The PRC only exists in the rump state that massacred twelve thousand people for being suspected communist sympathizers and enacted forty years of martial law? Those are your guys? Jesus christ lmao
Removed by mod
Literally one comment ago
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No, the capitalist dictatorship in Taiwan that murdered all of the communists and local resistance when the KMT moved in in the White Terror isn’t anywhere close to a People’s Republic.
Utter nonsense. The CPC is the party in power in a socialist state, where the working classes use their authority against capitalists. The US Empire and the Russian Federation are both dictatorships of capital, like Taiwan, where authority is wielded against the working classes.
Nonsense. All states wield authority, this is partially correct, but they do so in service of a definite class. In the PRC, those classes are the working classes.
No he would not, Marx viewed authority by its class character, not in a liberal view that divorces the state from class struggle. Don’t invoke Marx while erasing class struggle.
You have a very strange definition of socialism. The CCP is doing their own thing that looks a hell of a lot like properly regulated capitalism. They also have created a digital scanscape and have all the big brother surveillance shit. They have teams of hackers that the state employs to constantly try to attack everyone else. They are exporting their version of authoritarianism with their tools. If the CCP were for the working class, they wouldn’t have the literal thieves that are billionaires.
I expect better of you Cowbee.
Not at all. Socialism is a transitional status between capitalism and communism, where the proletariat has siezed state power and public ownership is the principal aspect of the economy. This is absolutely true of the PRC.
No? Private ownership is secondary to public, and is relegated to small/medium firms, as well as highly competitive, non-critical industries like tech. The system of the PRC is typically described as a Socialist Market Economy. The commanding heights of the economy are overwhelmingly publicly owned, while private ownership typically is found in secondary industries and highly competitive non-critical industries like tech. The CPC often has controlling shares of private companies as well, especially the larger ones. As these private firms grow, they are socialized and often folded into the public sector. This is why public ownership is the principal aspect of the economy, and determines the nature of the PRC’s path on the socialist road.
See also the stages of socialism presented by Chinese economists, like Cheng Enfu:
The character of the state is a dictatorship of the proletariat. Whole-Process People’s Democracy is the form of consultative democracy in China. Local candidates are directly elected, and then these ladder upwards in indirect elections. The top conducts many surveys and tries to find policy from the people via the Mass Line, while practicing democratic centralism and maintaining the ability to quickly respond to changing conditions. Long-term policy change is slow but positive as consensus is built, short-term crisis is quickly adapted to as needed.
Also, it’s the Communist Party of China, not Chinese Communist Party. The format “CP_” is the internationalist form, like CPRF. “CCP” draws on western orientalist views.
Every existing socialist state is still a part of ongoing class struggle, and needs to develop tools to keep capitalists suppressed and prevent them from developing political power.
Genuinely confused by this one, the CPC isn’t attacking everyone. They do have intelligence gathering, like all states do.
The CPC isn’t exporting socialism (or “authoritarianism,” which is a meaningless term). This is one part that Marxists sometimes do criticize China for. The CPC focuses on the development of China, and favorable relations with communist parties and existing socialist states. They do not export revolution like the USSR did.
I don’t know what you mean by this either. I have the standard Marxist-Leninist take on the PRC, because I read a good deal of Marxist-Leninist theory and organize with Marxist-Leninists.
Then the standard ML take is actively pro authoritarian and actively acting as class traitors.
The fact that you don’t know about the teams of hackers that actively attack every other developed countries during Chinese timezones, is telling.
I guess I have to stop thinking of you as a friend of the masses.
The standard ML take is the standard Marxist take, that the working classes should wield the power of the state to collectivize production and distribution and prevent capitalists from taking political power. I don’t know what you mean by “acting as class traitors,” the working classes govern China and that’s a good thing.
Not really. You gave no evidence of this, and I already stated that the PRC does do intelligence gathering on imperialist countries, as all geopolitical adversaries do. The CPC would be foolish not to.
I don’t see why the fact that I support socialism and socialist countries contradicts me being a friend to the working classes. You never countered any of my points, meaning it’s extremely unclear what actual problem you have with socialist China at a concrete level.
If the working classes ruled the government there would be no billionaires. They are not socialists, they are capitalist reformers at best. I will admit that China at least has the balls to prosecute some of the Great Thieves, but they allow them to become Great Thieves and don’t stop the theft of the working class.
If that is the standard ML take, then ML are capitalist simps.