I definetly want socialism. But that shit on the left is nothing, but corporate feel-good green capitalism, not worker’s control over the means of production.
No, the fantasy is that you’re magically going to end up in a worker ownership utopia going from the current capitalist relations. It’s incredible that somebody could be so infantile as to think there wouldn’t be some sort of a transition period after the working class takes power and has to fight against the dominant capitalist empire that tries to extinguish every socialist project. Try to put at least a bit of effort into your trolling not to make it so transparent.
No, the fantasy is that you’re magically going to end up in a worker ownership utopia going from the current capitalist relations.
You’re jumping to conclusions. I never told you how I think the transition to socialism is supposed to ocmur, yet you claim that I think it will “magically” happen. You’re fighting strawmen.
It’s incredible that somebody could be so infantile as to think there wouldn’t be some sort of a transition period after the working class takes power and has to fight against the dominant capitalist empire that tries to extinguish every socialist project.
Good thing I believe that a transitional period is necessary, then. Yet you seem to believe that there is only one correct way to enact that transitional period, which I find incredibly naive. Pretty much as naive as trying to negate means-ends unity. Especially since there have been multiple examples of socialism-aligned projects that don’t follow the ML/MLM-model.
Also, there’s nothing magical about prefiguration, either.
Try to put at least a bit of effort into your trolling not to make it so transparent.
I want to come back to my original point: the picture on the left is nothing but eco-virtue signaling and completely compatible with bourgeois ideology. So nothing new for the so-called PRC.
You told me you reject existing socialist projects, and we have not seen any viable alternative demonstrated in over a century. So, yes, you very clearly are suggesting a magical alternative here.
And no, I don’t believe there is one correct way to enact a transitional period. This is just a straw man you’re making to avoid engaging with what’s being said to you. What I believe is that there is one DEMONSTRATED way to do this, and that nobody has shown a viable alternative. If there was a workable alternative then we could discuss it. It does not exist.
You want to come back to your original point of rejecting real working socialism that’s tangibly improving people’s lives in China in favor of some mythical idea that you’re evidently unable to articulate. Go troll elsewhere.
You told me you reject existing socialist projects
Not all of them. Just the state-capitalist ones which claim to be socialist. Do you condone everything done in the name of socialism? Because that’s not possible with a coherent worldview. You’d have to both condone the Kronstadt rebellion, as well as it’s crushing. (Even if you claim that Kronstadt was a ploy of the whites: the official reasoning was a socialist one)
and we have not seen any viable alternative demonstrated in over a century.
That’s not true. Anarchist Catalonia was less than 100 years ago. Rojava and the Zapatistas still exist as well.
And no, I don’t believe there is one correct way to enact a transitional period.
Then why do you reject critique of the chinese government with the claim that it must be necessary?
What I believe is that there is one DEMONSTRATED way to do this, and that nobody has shown a viable alternative. If there was a workable alternative then we could discuss it. It does not exist.
The only reason you claim that is because you ignore every non-Leninist/Maoist project and also ignore all the states where ML/MLMism failed. Why is the soviet union supposedly viable, but anarchist catalonia isn’t. The success rate of Marxism-Leninism and it’s offshoots is less that 10%.
You want to come back to your original point of rejecting real working socialism that’s tangibly improving people’s lives in China in favor of some mythical idea that you’re evidently unable to articulate. Go troll elsewhere.
No. I’ve stated my original point several times: the images on the left are eco-virtue signaling, which can be found in capitalist states. If you wanted to show how the PRC improved the lives of its’ denizens (which I don’t even disagree with - but so has Sweden), you’ve chosen bad examples.
If you want to see green LEDs in subway stations, you don’t have to go to China. The thing you’ve posted is existing in bourgeois states. You’ve failed to show how “actual existing socialism” is improving one’s life. If given these two options (green LEDs vs. concrete hell), I’ll take neither.
Maybe I lack context. If you think I’m wrong, you could focus on my original critique (before you defended China against phantom attacks) and explain what I’m seeing on the left. But I guess that any example you give will have an equivalent in an openly capitalist state.
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Ah, the mythical third way that the compatible left keeps talking about, but has never been seen to work in practice in over a century.
I definetly want socialism. But that shit on the left is nothing, but corporate feel-good green capitalism, not worker’s control over the means of production.
No, you just want fantasies as opposed to actual existing socialism in the real world.
So worker’s ownership of the means of production is a “fantasy” for you? So you agree that you’re not a socialist. Cool
The bullshit on the left can all be found in western, capitalist countries. It’s nothing, but ecologic virtue signaling.
No, the fantasy is that you’re magically going to end up in a worker ownership utopia going from the current capitalist relations. It’s incredible that somebody could be so infantile as to think there wouldn’t be some sort of a transition period after the working class takes power and has to fight against the dominant capitalist empire that tries to extinguish every socialist project. Try to put at least a bit of effort into your trolling not to make it so transparent.
You’re jumping to conclusions. I never told you how I think the transition to socialism is supposed to ocmur, yet you claim that I think it will “magically” happen. You’re fighting strawmen.
Good thing I believe that a transitional period is necessary, then. Yet you seem to believe that there is only one correct way to enact that transitional period, which I find incredibly naive. Pretty much as naive as trying to negate means-ends unity. Especially since there have been multiple examples of socialism-aligned projects that don’t follow the ML/MLM-model.
Also, there’s nothing magical about prefiguration, either.
Lol. Projection much, comrade “prefiguration equals magic”?
I want to come back to my original point: the picture on the left is nothing but eco-virtue signaling and completely compatible with bourgeois ideology. So nothing new for the so-called PRC.
You told me you reject existing socialist projects, and we have not seen any viable alternative demonstrated in over a century. So, yes, you very clearly are suggesting a magical alternative here.
And no, I don’t believe there is one correct way to enact a transitional period. This is just a straw man you’re making to avoid engaging with what’s being said to you. What I believe is that there is one DEMONSTRATED way to do this, and that nobody has shown a viable alternative. If there was a workable alternative then we could discuss it. It does not exist.
You want to come back to your original point of rejecting real working socialism that’s tangibly improving people’s lives in China in favor of some mythical idea that you’re evidently unable to articulate. Go troll elsewhere.
Not all of them. Just the state-capitalist ones which claim to be socialist. Do you condone everything done in the name of socialism? Because that’s not possible with a coherent worldview. You’d have to both condone the Kronstadt rebellion, as well as it’s crushing. (Even if you claim that Kronstadt was a ploy of the whites: the official reasoning was a socialist one)
That’s not true. Anarchist Catalonia was less than 100 years ago. Rojava and the Zapatistas still exist as well.
Also, there’s a materialist reason, why so many countries imitate the Bolsheviki.
Then why do you reject critique of the chinese government with the claim that it must be necessary?
The only reason you claim that is because you ignore every non-Leninist/Maoist project and also ignore all the states where ML/MLMism failed. Why is the soviet union supposedly viable, but anarchist catalonia isn’t. The success rate of Marxism-Leninism and it’s offshoots is less that 10%.
No. I’ve stated my original point several times: the images on the left are eco-virtue signaling, which can be found in capitalist states. If you wanted to show how the PRC improved the lives of its’ denizens (which I don’t even disagree with - but so has Sweden), you’ve chosen bad examples.
If you want to see green LEDs in subway stations, you don’t have to go to China. The thing you’ve posted is existing in bourgeois states. You’ve failed to show how “actual existing socialism” is improving one’s life. If given these two options (green LEDs vs. concrete hell), I’ll take neither.
Maybe I lack context. If you think I’m wrong, you could focus on my original critique (before you defended China against phantom attacks) and explain what I’m seeing on the left. But I guess that any example you give will have an equivalent in an openly capitalist state.