I’d rather not get involved in another anarchism vs. state socialism debate, but I find @Prunebutt@slrpnk.net’s attitude obnoxious. While I do question if a people’s republic is the best possible way to go, dismissing the people’s republics as ‘bourgeois’ and ‘failures’ is a crappy, oversimplified conclusion that wilfully disregards the enormous gains that the working masses made in them.
Not to mention that this paskudnyak is being needlessly hostile: I trust that you despise capitalism as much as I do, so there’d be no need for me to behave smugly or condescendingly to you just because of your anarchism scepticism and preference for the people’s republics.
Anyway, like I said I’d rather not get into an argument. I just want to tell you that I sympathize with your frustrations and we don’t have to be enemies simply because we’re socialists who have different perspectives on state machinery. We can handle our disagreements respectfully.
Indeed, there is nothing wrong with principled criticism of existing socialist states. They have plenty of problems just as any human society does. But it’s the whole dismissal of these societies from people who live under capitalism that makes the whole conversation farcical.
And obviously we should continue to explore different approaches, but we should be doing that empirically. We need to honestly look at history and ask why certain ways of organizing tend to succeed and others tend to fail. If we don’t like the current approaches, then it’s fine to try and improve on them, and to do better going forward.
I also find there’s this false notion that if you acknowledge that a particular approach works say in China than it means wanting to transplant it directly to you own country. That obviously can’t happen because Chinese approach is rooted in the history, culture, and the material conditions of China. What we can do is analyze it and understand it to see what aspects of it could be useful. If we ever manage to start building socialism in the west, it will necessarily be rooted in western tradition of thought. It’s not going to looks like USSR or Vietnam, or PRC. It’s going to be something new and unique. The existing successes are there for us to learn from, and if we can improve on what they’ve done that’s all the better.
I’d rather not get involved in another anarchism vs. state socialism debate, but I find @Prunebutt@slrpnk.net’s attitude obnoxious. While I do question if a people’s republic is the best possible way to go, dismissing the people’s republics as ‘bourgeois’ and ‘failures’ is a crappy, oversimplified conclusion that wilfully disregards the enormous gains that the working masses made in them.
Not to mention that this paskudnyak is being needlessly hostile: I trust that you despise capitalism as much as I do, so there’d be no need for me to behave smugly or condescendingly to you just because of your anarchism scepticism and preference for the people’s republics.
Anyway, like I said I’d rather not get into an argument. I just want to tell you that I sympathize with your frustrations and we don’t have to be enemies simply because we’re socialists who have different perspectives on state machinery. We can handle our disagreements respectfully.
Indeed, there is nothing wrong with principled criticism of existing socialist states. They have plenty of problems just as any human society does. But it’s the whole dismissal of these societies from people who live under capitalism that makes the whole conversation farcical.
And obviously we should continue to explore different approaches, but we should be doing that empirically. We need to honestly look at history and ask why certain ways of organizing tend to succeed and others tend to fail. If we don’t like the current approaches, then it’s fine to try and improve on them, and to do better going forward.
I also find there’s this false notion that if you acknowledge that a particular approach works say in China than it means wanting to transplant it directly to you own country. That obviously can’t happen because Chinese approach is rooted in the history, culture, and the material conditions of China. What we can do is analyze it and understand it to see what aspects of it could be useful. If we ever manage to start building socialism in the west, it will necessarily be rooted in western tradition of thought. It’s not going to looks like USSR or Vietnam, or PRC. It’s going to be something new and unique. The existing successes are there for us to learn from, and if we can improve on what they’ve done that’s all the better.