Engineer is a whole other thing from the steam age, my BSc was in Math, worked fine to get me in.
As a mechanical engineer, I would beg to differ. When you strip away all the fancy math, engineering is ultimately about critical thought and solving problems/achieving functionality with limited resources. As one of my professors liked to say, “Anyone can build a bridge to support a load, but only an engineer can design a bridge that just barely holds that load.”
Engineering is an ancient domain that goes back to the very beginnings of civilization and continues to grow with our needs as we progress. Where once it was just mechanical, we now have domains like electrical, materials, and biomedical engineering. If we’ve hit a point where we need engineers who specialize in software, why shouldn’t we welcome in a new domain?
While it does feel weird calling software developers ‘engineers’, that is arguably what they do. It’s no less reductionist to suggest they are just programmers than it is to suggest that mechanical engineers are simply CAD and Excel jockeys. There’s a layer of comprehension about the systems in play and how they can be manipulated that gets lost in the reduction.
My only real sticking point about software engineers where I tend to push back is that Professional Engineer is a legally protected title and indicates licensure, at least in the US. It requires the right degree(s) and several years of work supervised by a PE to qualify for that licensure. The importance of the PE license is that you are recognized as an authority in your field- for good or ill. You can make big decisions, but you will also be held accountable if something goes wrong.
In my experience, many software engineers brush aside the importance of those types of qualifications because their field wasn’t quite as rigorous to enter. As we continue to develop a society where software mistakes can absolutely kill people (e.g. self-driving vehicles, robots, automated decision tools in medicine and insurance, etc) or cause massive economic damage, it’s critical that we decide how software engineers play a role in preventing those things and how we hold them accountable when they don’t.
As a software developer who also has a background in civil engineering and an EIT, I rue the fact that NCEES got rid of the software engineering PE exam before I had a chance to take it.
ultimately about critical thought and solving problems/achieving functionality with limited resources
I find in software engineering that the resources tend to be ample, it’s the capacity for critical thought that’s constrained. Predicting the users, predicting the future, predicting what users will do and want to do in the future… get that right and you’ve got the requirements for good software. Without good requirements, your software can build all kinds of fancy bridges to nowhere.
At one point, about 10 years after graduating with my Masters’ in Computer Engineering, I looked around about getting a PE license and the reality was: it had (and still has as far as I can tell) no value in the software field. I have a BS in EE, and if I wanted to start signing drawings for building electrical systems, a PE is just the thing for that. Around here, you need to apprentice under a PE for a time to get them to certify you as a PE, and the PEs we have aren’t in software, they wouldn’t know how to evaluate your software skills or professionalism. Reminds me of high school where they recognized that about 6 of the students knew far more about computer programming than the best (and only) teacher we had for it, so we were put in an “independent study” class to learn what we could from the equipment that various local businesses had donated to the school. Even as a practicing EE in the biomedical device design field, there was really no value to the PE license - for similar cultural reasons: the best biomedical engineers are in a different world from our existing PEs.
you will also be held accountable if something goes wrong.
I graduated before the internet. I had researched local companies the old fashioned way, and the first one I drove to to ask about a job, when I got there the parking lot was empty and there was a padlock and chain on the door. Guess I need to go to #2 on the list… turns out they (a pacemaker company) had been reprocessing faulty devices and shipping them with inadequate testing after rework, leading to the devices going bad shortly after surgical implant, requiring additional surgery for replacement. A whole chain of technicians, engineers, and executive management were culpable for the expense and risk they were causing for the users of their pacemakers. Other than the FDA shutting them down, there was a bunch of blow-hard talk about accountability, fines and jail time for management, but neither even came to a court hearing. Our system is, frankly, still very wild-west in terms of accountability for engineers in emerging fields.
it’s critical that we decide how software engineers play a role in preventing those things and how we hold them accountable when they don’t.
Agreed, but software has already had life-safety-critical and massively financially impactful roles in society for 50+ years now, and I see precious little progress toward formal accountability.
You clearly have a lot more experience than me- I’m fairly fresh out the gate. Like you, though, I work in a field where licensure isn’t super relevant (manufacturing).
It was drilled into my head in school and by my dad (cheme but does civil work and is on the committee that writes the cheme PE) that that for some domains, like civil and chem, it’s nigh impossible to find work without a PE (even entry level often requires at least the EIT accreditation).
Our system is, frankly, still very wild-west in terms of accountability for engineers in emerging fields.
It’s deeply unfortunate that your experience with the accountability side of things went the way it did. That’s another thing that they drilled into my head at school- if you sign a drawing and that park killed or hurt someone, the victims could call on you in a court of law to explain or even include you as a defendant in the suit. Does that always happen? Obviously not, but at least the possibly is there I guess.
Agreed, but software has already had life-safety-critical and massively financially impactful roles in society for 50+ years now, and I see precious little progress toward formal accountability.
Fully agreed here, I was just struggling to think of older life-critical examples after travelling for 22 hours lol (long day yesterday).
Wow, that was a screed, (a worthy one) and yeah, an engineering degree should be special IMO, as perhaps a (pure) Math one. should also be. We have a tendency to regard you lesser, in self defense, but that professional responsibility is significant, a more elegant weapon from a more civilized age. I do apologize, the steam age thing was out of line (but meant with heart, trains rock, and IMO is where ‘engineering’ started) has it’s roots.
As a mechanical engineer, I would beg to differ. When you strip away all the fancy math, engineering is ultimately about critical thought and solving problems/achieving functionality with limited resources. As one of my professors liked to say, “Anyone can build a bridge to support a load, but only an engineer can design a bridge that just barely holds that load.”
Engineering is an ancient domain that goes back to the very beginnings of civilization and continues to grow with our needs as we progress. Where once it was just mechanical, we now have domains like electrical, materials, and biomedical engineering. If we’ve hit a point where we need engineers who specialize in software, why shouldn’t we welcome in a new domain?
While it does feel weird calling software developers ‘engineers’, that is arguably what they do. It’s no less reductionist to suggest they are just programmers than it is to suggest that mechanical engineers are simply CAD and Excel jockeys. There’s a layer of comprehension about the systems in play and how they can be manipulated that gets lost in the reduction.
My only real sticking point about software engineers where I tend to push back is that Professional Engineer is a legally protected title and indicates licensure, at least in the US. It requires the right degree(s) and several years of work supervised by a PE to qualify for that licensure. The importance of the PE license is that you are recognized as an authority in your field- for good or ill. You can make big decisions, but you will also be held accountable if something goes wrong.
In my experience, many software engineers brush aside the importance of those types of qualifications because their field wasn’t quite as rigorous to enter. As we continue to develop a society where software mistakes can absolutely kill people (e.g. self-driving vehicles, robots, automated decision tools in medicine and insurance, etc) or cause massive economic damage, it’s critical that we decide how software engineers play a role in preventing those things and how we hold them accountable when they don’t.
As a software developer who also has a background in civil engineering and an EIT, I rue the fact that NCEES got rid of the software engineering PE exam before I had a chance to take it.
I didn’t know NCEES even entertained doing a software engineering license, interesting. When was that?
I find in software engineering that the resources tend to be ample, it’s the capacity for critical thought that’s constrained. Predicting the users, predicting the future, predicting what users will do and want to do in the future… get that right and you’ve got the requirements for good software. Without good requirements, your software can build all kinds of fancy bridges to nowhere.
At one point, about 10 years after graduating with my Masters’ in Computer Engineering, I looked around about getting a PE license and the reality was: it had (and still has as far as I can tell) no value in the software field. I have a BS in EE, and if I wanted to start signing drawings for building electrical systems, a PE is just the thing for that. Around here, you need to apprentice under a PE for a time to get them to certify you as a PE, and the PEs we have aren’t in software, they wouldn’t know how to evaluate your software skills or professionalism. Reminds me of high school where they recognized that about 6 of the students knew far more about computer programming than the best (and only) teacher we had for it, so we were put in an “independent study” class to learn what we could from the equipment that various local businesses had donated to the school. Even as a practicing EE in the biomedical device design field, there was really no value to the PE license - for similar cultural reasons: the best biomedical engineers are in a different world from our existing PEs.
I graduated before the internet. I had researched local companies the old fashioned way, and the first one I drove to to ask about a job, when I got there the parking lot was empty and there was a padlock and chain on the door. Guess I need to go to #2 on the list… turns out they (a pacemaker company) had been reprocessing faulty devices and shipping them with inadequate testing after rework, leading to the devices going bad shortly after surgical implant, requiring additional surgery for replacement. A whole chain of technicians, engineers, and executive management were culpable for the expense and risk they were causing for the users of their pacemakers. Other than the FDA shutting them down, there was a bunch of blow-hard talk about accountability, fines and jail time for management, but neither even came to a court hearing. Our system is, frankly, still very wild-west in terms of accountability for engineers in emerging fields.
Agreed, but software has already had life-safety-critical and massively financially impactful roles in society for 50+ years now, and I see precious little progress toward formal accountability.
You clearly have a lot more experience than me- I’m fairly fresh out the gate. Like you, though, I work in a field where licensure isn’t super relevant (manufacturing).
It was drilled into my head in school and by my dad (cheme but does civil work and is on the committee that writes the cheme PE) that that for some domains, like civil and chem, it’s nigh impossible to find work without a PE (even entry level often requires at least the EIT accreditation).
It’s deeply unfortunate that your experience with the accountability side of things went the way it did. That’s another thing that they drilled into my head at school- if you sign a drawing and that park killed or hurt someone, the victims could call on you in a court of law to explain or even include you as a defendant in the suit. Does that always happen? Obviously not, but at least the possibly is there I guess.
Fully agreed here, I was just struggling to think of older life-critical examples after travelling for 22 hours lol (long day yesterday).
Wow, that was a screed, (a worthy one) and yeah, an engineering degree should be special IMO, as perhaps a (pure) Math one. should also be. We have a tendency to regard you lesser, in self defense, but that professional responsibility is significant, a more elegant weapon from a more civilized age. I do apologize, the steam age thing was out of line (but meant with heart, trains rock, and IMO is where ‘engineering’ started) has it’s roots.