Feddit.org announced today that they are changing their rules to match German law despite their server not being hosted in Germany.
Feddit.org now bans
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The sentence “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”
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Comparing Israel to the Nazis
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Calls to end Zionism
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Calling for the dissolution of Israel
And much more. The full original post can be found here, or
Click here for full text of original post:
Hi.
In the past few days, discontent regarding mod decisions in this community has been brewing, particularly when it comes to comments on Palestine, Israel, and Israeli politics and actions. There are also misunderstandings regarding mod intention and German law. We hope to clear that up with this post.
While the servers of feddit.org are in Austria, most of the mods of this community as well as admins of this server live in Germany. Speaking of, our server admins have also posted a write-up on the same topic.
And with that, let’s go:
In Germany, antisemitism is specifically sanctioned in German criminal law, both for speech and as a motivation for other criminal behavior. In addition, Germany seeks to protect the Jewish state of Israel (the so-called “Reason of State” introduced in 2008) and thus verges toward protecting Zionism as well. Certain criticism of Israel/Israelis is also categorized as “Israel-related antisemitism”.
Since criminal law is involved, enforcement can mean things like police raids and device confiscations. After such police action, it does not really matter if it was appropriate or if cases are dropped or never charged: The damage is done. All told, it’s not that fun.
There is also no point in engaging in discussions about the veracity of statements that could get us into legal trouble. In addition, we believe that you can express most opinions without breaking rules.
If your comment contains the following, it will be removed from this community:
- Calling for the dissolution of Israel, or calling for a one-state solution without specifying equal rights for all people; Jewish in particular.
- Calling for a destruction, annihilation, an end of all Zionism or the like.
- Equating Israeli actions and (historical) Nazism.
- The slogan “from the river…”
- Endorsement of or justifications for Hamas or Hezbollah, or slogans or graphics positively referring to these organizations. These are considered terrorist organizations in Germany.
- … and obviously: Any of the common antisemitic tropes or calls to violence against Jews or Israelis
Comments will not be removed for the following:
- Denouncing genocide.
- Denouncing Israeli war crimes.
- Criticizing Zionism as an ideology or political movement.
- Referring to the current Israeli government as “criminal,” “expansionist,” or “far-right”.
If your comment is removed nonetheless, these are not the reason. I’d also like to stress that this community was never a free-speech-absolutist zone: It is a (usually lightly) moderated community. There may also be times when bans go too far. In such cases, please DM the @EuroMod@feddit.org account (which all mods have access to).
To help you understand why, I'll leave an assortment of sources here (translations via DeepL).
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Berlin in mid-May [2024] around 6 o’clock in the morning. A loud, continuous “banging” against the apartment door wakes student Alina T. from her sleep. […] When her husband opens the door, several LKA officers, two employees of the district office and the SEK “storm” past him into the apartment. Puzzled, he looks at the search warrant. […] The background to this was a Facebook entry in the student’s profile: "From the river […]
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In November 2023, the Federal Ministry of the Interior and for Home Affairs also issued a prohibition order against Hamas.[60] According to the order, “the slogan ‘From the River to the Sea’ (in German or other languages)” is a distinguishing mark of Hamas[61]. […] the current legal situation [regarding “Denial of Israel’s right to exist”] is - contrary to what the statements of the Federal Ministry of Justice suggest[63] - anything but clear. Whether incitements to eliminate the State of Israel are prosecuted depends on the respective legal opinion and the prosecution will of the respective public prosecutor’s office.
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Press release from the previous government:
In this context, Section 111 StGB, which covers public incitement to commit crimes, may also be relevant. Incitement to extinguish Israel’s existence by force may be punishable under this provision. The same applies to calls to publicly display the Hamas flag. If Hamas attacks are publicly cheered and celebrated, this may also be punishable. This means that people who cheer on Hamas’s actions or publicly express their sympathy with the attacks may constitute the criminal offence of “approval of criminal acts” under Section 140 of the German Criminal Code (StGB).
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In connection with the controversial Palestine Congress in Berlin, the German authorities have also imposed an entry ban on former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis. “In order to prevent antisemitic and anti-Israel propaganda at the event”, several entry bans have been issued, the news agency AFP learned from security sources on Sunday. One of these concerned Varoufakis. (Notably, Varoufakis would have spoken about one-state solutions …)
federal reverse (on behalf of the mods of !europe)
It’s wild how lies and propaganda spread in real time.
Feddit.org should put my balls in its mouth. And tongue my asshole.
Guess who I support? Palestinians who just want to exist. Same for all marginalized people.
Germany tried to create laws to prevent a repeat of the Holocaust. It’s a laudable effort but they’re failing at it.
The problem is that they were so specific about preventing “The Holocaust” that they ignored many other kinds of bigotry and racism. They thought that if they forbid a few key phrases and symbols, hatred would wither on the vine. Instead they just cleared the way for other aspects of racism to flourish.
well, fuck feddit.org then. Any place thats too busy fellating genocide deserves to be abandoned and blocked. If they think they matter, they are wrong.
I don’t blame the mods as they have little say in the matter but it’s sad to see never the less.
Better than what the headline seems though.
The description reads almost like malicious compliance.
Still. There are people advocating for similar measures against statements not as normal as the listed.
I hope these people can see how their wishes being fulfilled might lead to similar regrettable results. It’s better not to walk the preceding steps.
One set of basics a decent human being should always remember - “I am not wise, I am not righteous, and I don’t know what is right and what is wrong, I can only try not to multiply evil and to avoid lying to myself and others, and when I make a decision, I know it’ll harm people”.
Banning calls for dissolution of a genocidal Apartheid is not “malicious compliance”.
They are even banning calls to end Zionism which is comparable to banning calls to end Nazism.
Of course this comparison could not be made on Feddit.org because they ban comparisons of Zionism to Nazis.
The comments section is a circle jerk full of chuds going “it’s about time somevody stood up for poor Israel, only here and world isn’t Hamas”
I’d call it a psyop but Eur*peans have proven to be this ghoulish across their entire history so
I wish this was a psyop but germans have some weird mental gymnastics that result in them cornering themselves into these weird positions
Another one is their relationship with Russia… 🤡
Germans are quickly rearming, BTW.
And if we look at the numbers, their planned military budget is going to be the size of Russia’s. The efficiency of its use, despite all the jokes about German military bureaucracy, is going to be better too.
So I’d say it’s a huge question who’s being cornered, them or everybody around. Considering the size of Germany’s economy, its dependent economies and allied states. Considering that France, Poland, obviously Ukraine are interested in participating, so there’s bigger total scale of the system achievable.
Even for the old-fashioned kind of militarism they have sufficient population.
And about Putin - one of that regime’s worst unseen qualities is that not only it’s sadistic and barbaric and generally evil, it’s also incompetent. Well, competent in killing people, preserving power and all kinds of sadism, incompetent in strategy. In 5 years when Germany rearms well enough, they might, to optimize expenses, do something huge for old times’ sake after solving the immediate problem, and for this kind of aggression Putin’s Russia will not be ready, not even on the level of 1941.
But also Putin&co have that common for Soviet nomenclature fetish for the German empire. And they are psychopaths. They might be bringing this about because they want this to happen. They will all be in European countries, after all, living just fine, and nobody will put them in jail or take away their stolen riches.
one of that regime’s worst unseen qualities is that not only it’s sadistic and barbaric and generally evil, it’s also incompetent.
Liberals get their politics from marvel movies
You wouldn’t believe me.
Nah, just half, the other is from Harry Potter
True
It’ll take a lot more than 5 to train and equip an effective force.
the rape of berlin didn’t happen but it should have.
death to zionism
Palestinians, remember the following: you can resist your occupation but ONLY on the occupiers terms.
For the rest of us, remember the following: you can protest genocide, but ONLY on the genocider’s terms.
Calling for the dissolution of Israel, or calling for a one-state solution without specifying equal rights for all people; Jewish in particular.
Calling for a destruction, annihilation, an end of all Zionism or the like.
Zionism means colonialism not just in practice, but from its very inception:
Yes, and you are free to critizise Zionism for that on Feddit.org. The legal problem is not that, but that the German authorities don’t play word games and tend to equate Zionism/Israel/Jews as a shortcut and leave it to courts to decide later if that was justified or not.
They clearly state in one of the rules that I just linked, that calling for an end to zionism is a bannable offense.
The german state is full of witch-hunters and its people have learned nothing.
Yes and as I explained already there is a very specific legal reason for that, but this doesn’t mean you can’t critizise Zionism or call it a terrible settler-colonialist project.
there is a very specific legal reason for that
A misguided or intentionally malicious reason, for what the effect of that law is. Codifying into law the conflation of Judaism/ethnic Jewish identity with zionism is itself antisemitic. Calling for the end of Zionism isn’t the same as calling for the end of Jews or Judaism. What is the use of being allowed to criticize Zionism the ideology when you’re not also allowed to advocate for its end?
“Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology.” <- Ok “Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology, and Israel as a Zionist project should be dissolved in favor of a single-state that provides equal rights for Palestinians” <- Not ok, somehow?
The law as written only allows abstract and dissociated critique of Zionism, but forbids any criticism that comes too close to threatening Israel’s existence as a ethno-nationalist state. That’s a huge problem.
I didn’t make those laws, and I agree that the German government should make more of a distinction between antisemitism and anti-zionism. But it doesn’t and honestly in your above example you could just say:
“Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology, and Israel should become a state that provides equal rights for Palestinians”
An no one would object 🤷
This singular and persistent focus on the destruction of the (unfortunatly) already existing state of Israel, really makes it likely that many people rather use that as a dogwistle for antisemitism.
“Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology, and Israel should become a state that provides equal rights for Palestinians”
Except the moderation rule feddit has implemented does not allow for this statement, unless you specifically say that jews deserve equal rights in a single-state solution - which is similar to those who respond to ‘black lives matter’ by saying ‘but all lives matter’. Saying ‘Palestinians deserve equal rights’ wouldn’t be necessary if equal rights were already afforded them, and the point of making that statement is to draw attention to the fact that currently aren’t
This singular and persistent focus on the destruction of the (unfortunatly) already existing state of Israel, really makes it likely that many people rather use that as a dogwistle for antisemitism.
Nobody who is advocating for Palestinian liberation uses the word “destroy” or ‘destruction’ when referring to the dissolution of Israel - I only ever see those words used by people trying to make this inference between anti-zionism and antisemitism. The only people who take statements of liberation as a threat against Jews are people who are collaborating or benefiting from the oppression Israel conducts in their name.
Sorry, but you are misinterpreting that rule. What I said is perfectly compatible with the rule. The extension that this also applies to Jews is solely to preempt the common “equal rights and the Jews are free to leave” dogwistle.
And you are highly mistaken that there are no people advocating for the destruction of Israel, in fact it is quite common.
It’s so funny how you types are constantly hiding behind the law and saying, “I didn’t make the law, I don’t agree with it, but they have to do this to avoid legal liability, hands are tied” and then five seconds later you say stuff like, “criticism of Israel is a dogwhistle for antisemitism.”
You’re a coward, refusing to admit your real positions because you know you can’t defend them.
Please don’t put words in my mouth. My real position is crystal clear and I am happy to stand by it.
but that the German authorities don’t play word games and tend to equate Zionism/Israel/Jews
Sounds like they very much do play word games then.
Oh I see. Which is why the admins/mods of Feddit.org are also publicly coming out criticizing the German government for this crackdown on nuanced speech, right? Right?
Who got the oldest artifacts in Palestine? Doesn’t seem colonizing if you have one of the earliest histories somewhere, right? That’s why Russia has a right to reclaim Ukraine /s
Do Greeks get Constantinople, Marseille and Syracuse back?
Serious mental gymnastics lol
Who has the oldest artifacts in the Americas? Or Australia?
Oh I fully support America and Australia controls should be handed back to the respective natives if in either situation they would have conflict about territory
And yet every self-declared pro-Zionist I’ve talked to says Zionism is just the right of the state of Israel to exist, and so being anti-Zionist is being for the destruction of the state, and being for the destruction of the state is being for the death or dispossession of every person in the state.
I think the German state is probably more inclined to interpret discussion of Zionism the way the pro-Zionists I’ve spoken to have describe the term.
I think the historical description in the text that you link is accurate, but if you’re trying to argue that Germans should be able to critique Zionism however they want because of that, it’s like literally getting into an argument about the literal meaning of literally with people who use literally to mean figuratively, but instead of a random teenager or twee linguistic descriptivist, you are arguing with the state.
Genuine freak shit. Maybe wait until the government bothers you, don’t preempt them
Says the person not at risk of early moring police raids of their home including months long confiscation of all their communication devices and costly legal proceedings to get them back.
You would have turned in Anne Frank.
Right, people arguing to not expose others to the risk of police raids are “asckually Nazis”. You realize how absurd that is? Anne Frank was found during a police raid…
Are you fr? Are the feddit admins (appropriate as fuck name) hosting Palestinian refugees in their server locations, now?
Eur*s and their guilt tripping for shit they caused in the first place I stg
“Look it’s the law, disobeying the law is bad, I must obey the law and report my local
Jewspro-Palestine thought crime.”The irony of all the armchair warriors here is too thick 🤦 Go get yourself squatted and possibly arrested, that will for sure help the Palestinians that are facing a genocide /s
I’m a devops engineer and host quite a few things. Running a point to point VPN is fucking simple for anyone capable of running Lemmy.
Your argument is transparently stupid to anyone with even an once of technical capabilities.
Ok great, than explain it to us, because apparently you have no idea about the actual situation Mr. “DevOps Engineer”… (a joke of a job title for actual security professionals). /s
You’re as competent a security professional as your beloved Rhodesian military was as fighting.
I also literally did tell you how I’m the comment above. Setup a point to point VPN and set the remote endpoint address in DNS for the URL. Make sure the remote endpoint is not in German jurisdiction.
Someone that was actually competent (not you) would know how to do that.
Better than supporting laws that censor support for people. Some solarpunk you are.
A Solarpunk with better opsec, yes. Maybe you should learn a bit about that yourself.
The OPSEC of “censor discussion”? That’s not the OPSEC or solarpunk I’m familar with.
You need to look up the definition of censorship, because you are apparently ignorant or brainwashed by some freeze peach people on the topic.
Asking people not to post stuff on a public forum that could endanger themselves and the operators of the forum is good opsec practise, as is removing such posts that are made regardless of that.
I have a hard time believing you care about opsec if you think rotating across accounts is a bannable offense.
That wasn’t me, but in specific cases where multiple accounts are used for ban evasion or similar stuff that can be justified from a moderation perspective.
And if you do such a bad job that it is easy to guess your sockpuppet accounts then that is really a failure in opsec on your side 😅
Apparently not.
I am not one of the admins effected by this, but I know better than to expose others to such risks over stupid arguments on a public internet forum.
But apparently that is too much to expect here 🙄
I’m a communist trans woman with guns who helps house refugees for free in the USA. I’ve had ICE show up to my doorstep before.
Incredible work, comrade. 🫡
Great, more power to you, but you do realize that this is still quite a different situation? What you are doing is not illegal (for now at least) and you have some control over the risks you personally take.
Hosting a space for others but still being legally responsible for what they do in that space has different requirements.
What I’m doing is illegal in my jurisdiction, ICE showed up for a reason. The law can eat my ass
Fine, I don’t know your situation, but there is still the difference that you chose to take that personal risk intentionally, while the feddit.org admins did not.
Unforced error really, there’s a lot of secure hosting providers that take anonymous payments. Could easily say you transferred domain control to someone else to avoid liability when the law passed. They’re doing this because they have no convictions and are lazy at best, at worst they support Israel.
Not really.
You can’t become anonymous and retain site ownership. The site would’ve needed to be shut down and a new, somehow completely unrelated site would have to be started.
Besides, even if that were done you bet your ass a random German lawyer would immediately sue the new site for violating Impressumspflicht. That’s one quick way to get the police investigating your site. Your OPSEC better be close to “hosting an illegal streaming site” level.
Even German forums about piracy would rather have an impress and remove illegal content than remain anonymous and evade police - see tarnkappe.info.
You are an amazing person, but I find it funny how in the US even the communists have guns.
Communists have always been pro-gun, you can’t have a revolution without them. Things get more nuanced within Socialism, once the revolution has broadly succeeded, but an armed working class in Capitalism is harder to oppress.
~ Average german defense for their complicity in the 1940s.
Tbh, I can understand it. There have been police raids kicking in doors of families with small children at 5 in the morning for having a Facebook post saying “from the … to the …” (I am also in Germany…). The police went through all of the families belongings and took all web-connected electronics.
The situation is really rough here in Germany.
Fucking Germany
germans supporting a genocide, why am i not surprised
also defending facism at every turn
akshually they’re just complying to law 🤓
Wtf is this, this is like coptulating to nazis back in the day, shame on them
What capitulation lmao. Can’t capitulate to yourself.
Removed by mod
