Once again, the non-revisionist non-reformist internationalist socialist position is to not take sides in a conventional inter-imperialist (read inter-capitalist) war.
Ukraine de facto acts as the proxy of the West, while Russia is a regional imperialist power.
Both are capitalist governments fighting each other over their respective interests, there is nothing proletarian about Ukraine; the international proletariat belongs to no country…
Anti-colonial/liberation wars are another topic. Critical support is warranted there, even if it isn’t a proletarian movement fighting them.
All the liberals masquerading as leftists always seem to forget “No war but class war!” whenever it’s convenient for them; so please eat your veggies read your theory…
You’re so steeped in theory and strategy that you’ve forgotten to defend the universal human right to self-determination. Ukrainians do not consent to being governed by Russia, and that is reason enough for me to side with them.
when you choose the side of non-intervention you take the position of the oppressor. russia is committing a genocide in Ukraine. sure, they’re both capitalist regimes, but one is clearly the imperial colonizer. call me “the liberal” again if you must, but your understanding of political theory is incomplete if you don’t see Ukraine’s self defense as a war of resistance.
standing aside and letting russia win does not bring anyone closer to The Revolution. what brings us closer to liberation is supporting groups like Destroy the Lines and Sibir Corps (which the US refuses to support for being leftist russian groups) that are coordinating with Ukrainian military forces
How do you figure? The civilians in the region that are dying are ethnic Russians who speak Russian and voted in 2014 to join Russia and are dying of the NATO backed Ukrainian policy and “defense”
Israel killed almost 10x as many civilians as Russia has in a much smaller area. That is a genocide. They are erasing the Palestinian people and culture. The Russians are not.
Top level summary is that Russia’s killings are indiscriminate of who’s who in Eastern Ukraine, and they are abducting children for the purposes of russification, which are both internationally recognized as acts of genocide.
What is happening in Palestine is genocide on a larger scale with Israel having far less resistance stopping them from indiscriminate killings. We do not need to use one genocide’s scale to de-legitimize claims that another genocide is also a genocide. Genocide in Palestine, Sudan, and Ukraine also do not make the United States actions throughout Latin America over the course of the last 50 years not genocide.
What is happening in the world is happening everywhere. Our best chance at bringing these things to an end is to act against our oppressors everywhere we are and to not try to create false dichotomies. The more acts of oppression you tolerate, the more tolerant you become of oppression until eventually there is no hope of freedom anywhere. We will not be free until every genocide everywhere is brought to a stop and every authority held accountable for its role in this global system of atrocity.
Russia invaded Ukraine. Just like Palestine, it it has a right to defend its sovereignty (albeit Palestine has ~80 years of a right to do this, compared to Ukraine’s ~15).
Remember that working class people are suffering from these capitalist wars. They did not choose this
Edit: Also, how is Russia’s invasion of Ukraine not imperialist?
If that were the whole truth you would have a point (at least for Donetsk and Luhansk, not all of Ukraine), but the extent to which Russia was involved in the separatist movement calls their popular support into question. It’s not all that different from how the US gives support to dissident groups in countries it’s interested in destabilizing, except in scale.
I think it’s also worth noting that the pro-Russia separatists are far-right extremists, which I think is quite an inconvenient fact for Russia given their “de-Nazification” justification for invading Ukraine.
“No war but class war” doesn’t mean you cannot fight or support a defensive war.
If it does, it is an irredeemably stupid position.
The non-revisionist, non-reformist, internationalist socialist position can eat dicks.
If there is an imperialist aggressor invading another country, then the MORAL position is to side against the aggressor. Because regardless of how you feel about the governments (which, fuck all governments, so what’s the point in making that distinction?), the civilians will be feeling the brunt of the war.
There is an imperialist aggressor and it is Russia.
The oblasts involved in this war want to join Russia and voted to join in 2014 after the Ukrainians kicked out the Russian friendly government. They voted to join Russia because they feared that the Ukrainian government was going to oppress them for being Russian speaking ethnic Russians. They were right, In the years between 2014 and 2022 they fought a civil war to leave Ukraine and were not allowed to and Russia intervened. Most of the people living there moved to Russia.
The only irredeemably stupid position is the person who just takes into account 2022 and after and not looking at the whole picture. You have no fucking idea what you are talking about.
Sorry, I can’t hear you over your staunch adherence to revisionism in favor of authoritarian imperialist powers masquerading as socialist or communist.
Once again, the non-revisionist non-reformist internationalist socialist position is to not take sides in a conventional inter-imperialist (read inter-capitalist) war.
Ukraine de facto acts as the proxy of the West, while Russia is a regional imperialist power.
Both are capitalist governments fighting each other over their respective interests, there is nothing proletarian about Ukraine; the international proletariat belongs to no country…
Anti-colonial/liberation wars are another topic. Critical support is warranted there, even if it isn’t a proletarian movement fighting them.
All the liberals masquerading as leftists always seem to forget “No war but class war!” whenever it’s convenient for them; so please
eat your veggiesread your theory…One invaded the other. One is actively acting like an imperialist power and the other is not.
You’re so steeped in theory and strategy that you’ve forgotten to defend the universal human right to self-determination. Ukrainians do not consent to being governed by Russia, and that is reason enough for me to side with them.
when you choose the side of non-intervention you take the position of the oppressor. russia is committing a genocide in Ukraine. sure, they’re both capitalist regimes, but one is clearly the imperial colonizer. call me “the liberal” again if you must, but your understanding of political theory is incomplete if you don’t see Ukraine’s self defense as a war of resistance.
standing aside and letting russia win does not bring anyone closer to The Revolution. what brings us closer to liberation is supporting groups like Destroy the Lines and Sibir Corps (which the US refuses to support for being leftist russian groups) that are coordinating with Ukrainian military forces
How do you figure? The civilians in the region that are dying are ethnic Russians who speak Russian and voted in 2014 to join Russia and are dying of the NATO backed Ukrainian policy and “defense”
Israel killed almost 10x as many civilians as Russia has in a much smaller area. That is a genocide. They are erasing the Palestinian people and culture. The Russians are not.
Top level summary is that Russia’s killings are indiscriminate of who’s who in Eastern Ukraine, and they are abducting children for the purposes of russification, which are both internationally recognized as acts of genocide.
What is happening in Palestine is genocide on a larger scale with Israel having far less resistance stopping them from indiscriminate killings. We do not need to use one genocide’s scale to de-legitimize claims that another genocide is also a genocide. Genocide in Palestine, Sudan, and Ukraine also do not make the United States actions throughout Latin America over the course of the last 50 years not genocide.
What is happening in the world is happening everywhere. Our best chance at bringing these things to an end is to act against our oppressors everywhere we are and to not try to create false dichotomies. The more acts of oppression you tolerate, the more tolerant you become of oppression until eventually there is no hope of freedom anywhere. We will not be free until every genocide everywhere is brought to a stop and every authority held accountable for its role in this global system of atrocity.
Russia invaded Ukraine. Just like Palestine, it it has a right to defend its sovereignty (albeit Palestine has ~80 years of a right to do this, compared to Ukraine’s ~15).
Remember that working class people are suffering from these capitalist wars. They did not choose this
Edit: Also, how is Russia’s invasion of Ukraine not imperialist?
How is it like Palestine? Did the Palestinians in Gaza vote in 2014 to join Israel like the Russians in Russian speaking Eastern Ukraine did?
Pretty sure I explained it in my comment. Sovereignty.
If that were the whole truth you would have a point (at least for Donetsk and Luhansk, not all of Ukraine), but the extent to which Russia was involved in the separatist movement calls their popular support into question. It’s not all that different from how the US gives support to dissident groups in countries it’s interested in destabilizing, except in scale.
I think it’s also worth noting that the pro-Russia separatists are far-right extremists, which I think is quite an inconvenient fact for Russia given their “de-Nazification” justification for invading Ukraine.
Removed by mod
“No war but class war” doesn’t mean you cannot fight or support a defensive war.
If it does, it is an irredeemably stupid position.
The non-revisionist, non-reformist, internationalist socialist position can eat dicks.
If there is an imperialist aggressor invading another country, then the MORAL position is to side against the aggressor. Because regardless of how you feel about the governments (which, fuck all governments, so what’s the point in making that distinction?), the civilians will be feeling the brunt of the war.
There is an imperialist aggressor and it is Russia.
The oblasts involved in this war want to join Russia and voted to join in 2014 after the Ukrainians kicked out the Russian friendly government. They voted to join Russia because they feared that the Ukrainian government was going to oppress them for being Russian speaking ethnic Russians. They were right, In the years between 2014 and 2022 they fought a civil war to leave Ukraine and were not allowed to and Russia intervened. Most of the people living there moved to Russia.
The only irredeemably stupid position is the person who just takes into account 2022 and after and not looking at the whole picture. You have no fucking idea what you are talking about.
Sorry, I can’t hear you over your staunch adherence to revisionism in favor of authoritarian imperialist powers masquerading as socialist or communist.