So wait what are you doing?

Uhm yeah I tried that on Firefox and Chrome lol

That worked, thank you!

I’m curious but this video doesn’t seem to play in mobile on FF or Chrome

The fraud part I was discussing is specifically that criminals or even central authorities can’t create additional supply (think printing cash) because they can only be created through the mechanism of the crypto itself. Things like bank runs or runaway inflation due to poor govt policy. I didn’t mean scams weren’t possible, I guess I apologize for not being more clear, but I figured because we specifically talked about bank runs and supply that you understood what I was talking about.

It would be insane to say crypto prevents all forms of fraud, so I didn’t think it’d be taken that way. But you don’t know me so I shouldn’t make those assumptions when talking to randos online lol.

The fact that you can still have your money stolen with a credit card easily was my point. You then didn’t care about the actual process to recover when that occurs because “all that matters is the consumer experience” but we’re literally talking about a potential currency alternative so the process/method is extremely relevant.

I didn’t invent a personal definition of fraud, I tried to clarify when and why it is helpful to use the more specific term scamming as opposed to generalized fraud, because again we’re discussing the problems in crypto currency that need to be addressed in order to replace the fraud protections that have been developed over time through the banking system.

I’m arguing in good faith, you simply don’t care to see my points and disregard anything you don’t like lmfao.

If you get scammed into buying something that isn’t as advertised, the bank isn’t going to refund you automatically, it becomes a legal situation. If you have been defrauded and had your card information stolen and used for ourchases you didn’t make, then the bank will do something about it.

Again this is why I’m being specific about the two terms. People buying into garbage altcoins are being scammed, they’re not being literally defrauded in the same way. I don’t see how you could disagree with that assessment.

Edit: Let’s talk NFTs, I would say people were scammed into buying them for crazy inflated prices, but that’s not legally fraud because they did get what they paid for, they just believed hype or wanted to try and make a quick buck or whatever. They would not likely get their money back even if they paid for the NFT with their credit card because it’s not actual fraud.

Can we at least agree on that?

When’s the last time you bought a laptop from any other manufacturer and had to specifically opt in to buying the charger

Ah yes, tech nerds not at all known to gatekeep lmao

Lol k, yes it’s actually important to understand how money moves around when talking about a potential replacement.

Ok do you understand how that actually works for the bank? I’m not questioning the end user impact lmao, I’m telling you what happens to the bank itself, please explain to me how if someone uses your stolen card to get cash before the fraud is noticed the bank magically gets that cash bank from the one who stole it.

The answer is, they don’t, they have insurance and such and make you whole that way.

It can’t be done with crypto because you are transferring direct. You would need someone in between in which case you have reinvented banking.

You don’t actually, there could be a fund paid for via taxes or similar to aide people who’ve been scammed/defrauded while the criminal activity is investigated and punished by authorities, just like right now with traditional currencies.

I’m getting the impression you aren’t in the US or British and don’t speak English natively.

I’m from Texas, I am a licensed financial professional lmao. There is literally a difference in practice between a scam and fraud.

Fraud is an umbrella term, scams fall inside it. So I’m being pedantic and pointing out the differences in behavior between a generic fraud (such as your identity stolen or using your card pretending to be you in other examples) and scamming (things like ICO rugpulls, midnight infomercial jewelry, I’d argue “mystics” and megachurches)

Edit: To your point tho, it does still fall into the fraud category, but it helps to be more clear about what specific bad behaviors are being done to properly identify potential solutions IMO.

If your card is stolen, you are still safe. The credit card company reverses the charges.

You must know that’s not actually how it works, often the funds can’t be pulled back like that and instead the bank takes the hit. That is something that could be done with crypto as well.

That’s a horrible example because that’s exactly the same as what happens with crypto on a daily basis. When a crypto is dumped, it’s value plummets leaving bag holders.

That’s not what a bank run is, that’s just a rug pull, and yes I agree there are a lot of scam coins that people fall for, that’s not an indictment of the idea of crypto as a whole.

A bank run is when the bank does not literally have the money owed to depositors because they lend it out. (Or other means) and if too many attempt to withdraw at once they literally can not give people their money.

That’s a completely different situation and it concerns me you think they’re the same.

With banks your money is insured up to $250,000.

That’s not a feature of the currency itself, it’s a forced regulation due to bad behvior of the industry prior where people lost money. Again this could be done with a cryptocurrency as well with proper regulations in place.

Global monetary supply isn’t fraud.

I never claimed it was, I said it was opaque. We can’t know how many dollars are actually printed/in circulation compared to how much total is being “held” in banks.

Which is why I didn’t say cash. I said credit card. If you are mugged and your credit card is stolen, you call the credit card company, report the theft, and you lose nothing. They don’t hold you responsible for the list money.

I said cash, and have continued to reference cash, going back to the original BTC whitepaper the point has always been cash analogue with the ability to do more due to it being digital. It can’t completely replace regulation and consumer protection just like cash couldn’t without external enforcement.

Your dad’s bank account was hacked and his money was returned by the bank TWICE. That’s the opposite of fraud.

He was defrauded by the people who stole the money, but he wasn’t scammed (going back to my previous point that these two words do not mean the same thing). My point was that the bank didn’t “get the money back” they made him whole by taking the hit. Again that’s not a feature of credit cards or currency, it’s an external institution and regulation above them to enforce that. Again something I think should be done with crypto as well.

Your edit isn’t fraud, it’s scamming lol, there’s articles showing the people who paid in the most got things from Trump, quid pro quo basically and the rubes who bought in for less thinking dear leader wouldn’t rugpull them.

There seems to be a fundamental disconnect here.

The things you cite as positives for existing credit card/banking institutions did not magically appear out of thin air, nor did they start that way.

It takes time, regulations and knowledge for those things to be put in place, I’m all for that.

I also think shitcoins are scams, just like midnight infomercial products are mostly scams. Its not a hard concept to understand that commerce itself isn’t a scam but some do fake commerce to scam or defraud people. The same is true for crypto, projects like BTC (I could go on a whole tangent about how it’s been coopted and ruined but I won’t) and ETH had actual usecases whereas doge/Litecoin/whatevercoin did not.

Clearly you’re incapable of having a good faith discussion and I don’t care to continue. Have a good day

So I consider fraud and scamming to be a bit different, but maybe I’m just being pedantic or misusing the word.

Moreso what I meant was things like literally printing money isn’t possible outside of how the coin functions (assuming no bugs lol) and the global supply and such are known values that can be backed up.

Compare that to the opaqueness of the US banking system where things like bank runs can and do happen because money is essentially duplicated via things like loans backed only by promises rather then literally tied into the functionality of the currency itself.

On the bank point, there’s no reason an authority of sorts couldn’t do the same thing with crypto, they had to take the hit for the lost money as it was already gone, just like what can happen with crypto. I’m sorry your nephew lost his funds due to malware, however I’d argue they likely didn’t take proper protections. For example we know things like card skimmers exist and you have to take actions to prevent those things from impacting you as well.

On your last point, hopefully I explained a bit more why, to me, it does relate to fraud, but yes it doesn’t have anything to do with malware, nor did I claim it did.

But going back to the malware point, that’s no different from getting mugged and losing your life savings because you kept all your cash on you. It sucks to get mugged but it’s “common sense” not to carry all of your cash on you at a time, while it’s not yet common sense for people who hardly understand the idea of crypto as to how they can/should secure their keys or distribute across multiple wallets potentially to guard against that.

I agree in theory with these kinds of rules, but I don’t trust legislators to do it properly.

For an example, I remember back in my rs2 days, RWT (real world trading) was relatively common and things like loot dropped from certain monsters was randomized, you might have to kill it 100 times to get that one drop or pay $5 or whatever to get it now.

Where would a legistlator fall on that? Is that gambling? Does RNG and the ability to transfer goods on a game then become illegal just by way of interpretation?

Truth is, the game was rigged from the start.

Downvote but no argument? It’s exactly the same kind of logic being used to push age verification laws.

Protecing children is a parents job first and foremost, all the excuses I hear from parents read to me like maybe you shouldn’t have had children if you can’t dedicate the time to educating yourself and watching over their activities to a minimal degree.

All the laws being proposed and implemented generally just impact adults much more then children anyway.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/b3c5d436-a7ba-4657-8a9d-0fec9edce801.png?thumbnail=1500&format=webp

My arguments are rooted in personal experience, on mobile at work so formatting is gonna be a little rough.

“Except if anything happens, then they find all sorts of loopholes to try to get out of it” Like what?

“AHAHAHAHA, have you not tried AirBNB since 2020? Hotels are cheaper, don’t have bullshit cleanup fees, and you never have to worry about freaky shit happening with the owner.” They absolutely have bullshit cleanup fees, and aren’t exactly cheap. Also there have been many many examples of hotels doing freaky shit lmao. (Edit: I will say I’ve never been charged a cleanup fee, but I worked service industry so I always make it as easy as possible for housekeeping.)

“Ask the people who get their keyphrase stolen how easy it is to get their money back when it gets stolen. Come back to me when crypto can actually prevent and reverse fraud. I don’t expect to hear from you again lol.” So how is that any different from getting scammed via cash or mugged in person? Can you magically reverse the mugging and get your cash back? I see this argument made by antj-crypto people all the time but it’s never once been said (in fact I literally said it doesn’t prevent scamming because it’s like cash yet you still strawmanned my argument)

“This is far from the worst problem with AI, well after the issues with hallucinations, poisoning the internet/search engines, and the environmental effects.” Good thing people always act logically and never misunderstand or hallucinate, SEO gaming definitely wasn’t a major problem before LLMs right?

Environmental issues I agree, though people do not understand where the energy usage actually occurs, It’s when models are trained now when just interacting with an LLM (I locally host my own and can literally see how much power it uses while being loaded at all times and it’s pretty negligible, less then when gaming.)

There absolutely needs to be regulation put in place though to force AI companies to build out clean energy sources and I’d even argue need to contribute back to the overall power grid of their area.

I’m open to changing my mind if you want to have an actual discussion on any of these points, but I doubt that given your attitude.

I literally said it doesn’t prevent scamming just like cash. Did people abhor cash because if you got scammed you couldn’t just get it back by asking the bank? (Which also is not really the only thing that can happen btw, sometimes banks just take the hit if it’s already been withdrawn or similar and choose to make you whole or not) My father had his bank account drained twice because of Zelle malware and the bank nearly didn’t give him his money back the second time.

The overall supply of most crypto is known, and unless it’s a privacy chain transactions are generally visible on the network rather then being completely hidden from view like other currencies.

The replacements aren’t actually worse though.

Using Uber/Lyft is far easier and more convenient for all parties involved. (Not saying that equates to morally good though)

Using AirBNB for people to vacation in or whatever is a much better experience potentially for a tenant then the sub-par standards of hotels.

Cryptocurreny provides freedom of exchange in a digital way while still having an overall ledger to prevent fraud. (Doesn’t stop people from getting scammed but the same is true for cash)

Copyright laws basically always majorly benefit the corporation who owns it rather then an individual who actually created the thing. I also was a pirate in my younger years and in general believe information should be free and peoples needs should be met so they don’t have to necessarily try to profit off what should be an artistic expression.

I don’t think AI will actually replace creativity, some will use it to churn out garbage but that was already true for existing tools for whatever art form you might prefer. A simple example is electronic music, a lot of musicians look down on electronic music artists because it’s not “real music”.

Edit: Fundamentally the issue/complaints from many are the user experience AND the problems with the corporations doing shitty corp stuff. I feel zero empathy for the prior companies that didn’t innovate at all and let their monopoly power print them money at the expense of the customer via corporate lobbying and such, however I’m under no illusion that the replacements are any better aside from their user experience lmao.

Yes and no, when laws stop being about what’s right/wrong and start being written for the benefit of entrneched corporations and their interests…