I was watching SNW last night and I think it sort of plays into something I’ve joked about since the 90’s era shows.
You gotta be fucking crazy to join Starfleet. So it makes sense that all the characters occasionally feel like bundles of trauma and melodrama. No normal, well adjusted person would leave the post scarcity gay space communism utopia of Earth to go through all the wild shit a Starfleet officer does.
Unfortunately, I find that quite tedious and it doesn’t feel deserved to be occurring every other episode in a 10 episode season. I want more episodic speculative science fiction with a recurring ensemble cast. SNW does some of that. That’s fun. Any plot that’s M’Benga-centric I know is gonna be absolutely batshit and I enjoy the absurdity of it all, but the emotional weight of it often feels… overplayed? The other shows clearly have other goals. And I guess that’s just fine, not every show is made especially for me, but with that in mind, it’s a bit surprising to see so many involved with the projects wonder why their take on the concept of Star Trek isn’t as well accepted as they want.
P.S. Pike being a Christian is so fucking stupid, really annoyed at whoever put that fucking nonsense into what is otherwise the best live action Star Trek running. Like fuck Gene’s vision and all that but holy shit I wanna throw shit at the TV when he starts doing that religious crap.
it’s a bit surprising to see so many involved with the projects wonder why their take on the concept of Star Trek isn’t as well accepted as they want.
This has been ongoing since The Next Generation. Every show gets slapped with criticism from people who were fans of the original stuff and don’t dig the vibe of the newer shows. Every single one has been hit by it. Equally, every show ends up being enjoyed later on. It’s been bizarre for me watching people hate on the Kelvin timeline for so long and yet now most people have some sense of nostalgia for it. Either the people who were angry about it changed their minds or they got drowned out by the fans of it. Hell, Enterprise is pretty beloved now with only the theme song getting criticism yet until Discovery was released it was considered the worst Star Trek ever made.
The problem is when people think that the opinions they see in an echo chamber are the only opinions or the vast majority. Star Trek: Discovery existed in a state of perpetual cancellation from Season 1 until Season 5 if you believed a lot of people on reddit or YouTube. It wasn’t.
For example. Did you know that the majority of Critics favorably reacted to Starfleet Academy? Did you know that Star Trek: Discovery was in the top ten streaming charts for 3 weeks in a row despite having a smaller userbase on Paramount+? Did you know that Starfleet Academy is all across the top ten list in most countries other than the US?
They are well accepted. Just not in echo chambers. And when you have users who want to talk positively about the new show seeing other users constantly talk negative about it, you’re not as likely to jump in when you’re afraid people are going to dogpile on you and yell. But they vastly outnumber the amount of negative people by far.
Edit: As for Pike and Religion… Gene was not as straight forward as people make it out to be. A good chunk of TOS episodes were about religion and implied a monotheistic culture. Also REALLY feel like people misunderstood the Pike religion thing. He’s not really religious. The only time he dips into that is for his father, as a way of feeling closer to him. To do something his dad would have enjoyed and a way to feel closer to his father after he passed away. That feeling of loss and longing has been demonstrated a couple of times, especially with him wanting to go off on a trip alone on his birthday to feel closer to his father. He is not deeply religious himself.
Ngl the critical reception doesn’t really matter to me, though I bet it’s a key performance indicator to the network, same with the viewership numbers.
I think it’s good we’re getting more Star Trek, almost as a rule, but I just wish I enjoyed watching the properties that came out more. SFA, Disco and Picard didn’t click. Lower Decks was phenomenal and SNW feels closer to the mark but still feels off.
It’s cool that they wanna take in spec scripts from other writers, though, maybe that’ll bring back some of the feeling of the old shows.
And plenty of people do enjoy watching those. Discovery means an enormous amount to me due to the representation that was in that that hasn’t been anywhere before. Same with SFA representing teens. I don’t necessarily relate with the SFA one but I’m just appreciative that they’re making something for other people too. We’ve had our Trek for a long time. It’s time for the next generation. Star Trek has NEVER been stagnant. Star Trek has NEVER been always the same. They’re all radically different but we look back on them with nostalgia. The only thing that they shared was a syndicated format of television but TV has evolved. You’ll never be able to go back home.
Star Trek: Discovery was in the top ten streaming charts for 3 weeks in a row
Only 3 weeks? I watched the whole first season, and some of the second. The first three weeks weren’t bad. A little rough, but as you mention so was the start of TNG. Some of us fans of the old stuff find it hard to stop giving Kurtzman Trek more chances, just because it’s got the Star Trek name. I even watched the entire Section 31 movie and a couple episodes of Starfleet Academy. That’s what it took to convince me it’s really over.
I had a similar experience with Disco. Watched the first season, nearly dropped it at the end, but the twist was big enough to catch my interest, quit part way into season 2.
I love that it has so many more explicitly queer people but the departure in show structure and form really clanged with me. Ugh and the Klingon pseudo sexual surgery stuff was so off-putting. I think it was Saru
DISCO S02E04 spoiler
actually being a predator species
that finally bucked me off.
I didn’t bother with Section 31, but dang I wish we got a show with Captain Georgiou instead of the evil house pet emperor character…
SFA might get better in time, but the first episode didn’t really grab me and had me asking so many questions I didn’t wanna look further into it. Plus now with Paramount being owned by right-wing monsters, I don’t think I’ll be giving them any money.
Only 3 weeks?
Considering that’s from Paramount+ viewing figures, and Paramount+ having less subscribers than other streaming services… Kind of a big deal. Same with Starfleet Academy being in the top 10 charts in every other one.
That’s what it took to convince me it’s really over.
Same nonsense that people said about Deep Space 9 and Voyager upon release.
I’d say Enterprise was the only one that inspired a level of dislike that was anything like comparable. But it was no Section 31. Nothing in Star Trek history has been so shockingly bad as that movie, and it’s not like they didn’t make a couple of bad movies before. It’s more akin to the Star Wars Holiday Special, except that instead of feeling any shame they chose to make a whole new series in the same directorial style. Eh well, who knows what the future may bring.
Wesley being unqualified for Starfleet for anything other than personality/maturity is insane. They keep saying he has to study more, but that guy has demonstrated that he knows the ship and the federation technology better than any other member of the ship.
It’s just not internally consistent. How would any of the current members of the enterprise be able to get in if fucking Mary-Sue-Wesley can’t???
Ahahaha yeah that was wild! And by DS9’s time, it didn’t seem nearly as precious. Nog got into the academy just off Sisko’s recommendations and entry seemed so guaranteed, Jake treated it as a take-it-or-leave-it situation.
Doesn’t it imply Picard simply refused to vouch for Westley?
I think it’s funny that for all the hate Wesley got, the OG wonder-boy was Chekov. Then Wesley basically turned into Jake (but with magic powers) by the end of TNG. He was just the weird middle child that didn’t work.
Jake Crusher sounds like a nepo-bro drinking buddy to Kirk, NGL.
Maybe they took Barclay’s negative recommendation way too seriously.
Iirc Wesley’s disqualification was age related. He was a boy genius but there is enough of those in the post scarcity utopia that Starfleet isn’t dumb enough to recruit all of them as officer, their lack of maturity could get them or others killed.
It was practically reverse affirmative action in that brightest youngsters could compete for a few slots to get into the academy a few years earlier. So he was not going up against the Miles O’Briens of Starfleet. He was going up against the Julian Bashirs who can ace nearly any standard test with their eyes closed.
Last thing Starfleet needed was impulsive teenagers to find them selves in command of veteran crewmen, react horribly to be given advice contrary to their current orders and get people or themselves killed. The Academy is for future officers, not the enlisted equivalent ranks that O’Brien filled. Wesley would have made a great crewman, he’d have made a terrible officer.
I agree that the series has kind of leaned a little too hard into Starfleet being an absolute miserable job where everyone is basically cannon fodder that just expects horrible things to happen all the time. It doesn’t really make a lot of sense when you think about how their society works. For most of TNG they really give the impression that its a great job that is mostly about discovering new shit and helping people. They really have drifted away from that.
They really have drifted away from that.
They are in radically different timeframes.
Moreover… Deep Space 9? This whole thing about ‘Starfleet being a miserable job’ is not a Modern Trek invention.
Good thing i didn’t say it was then, huh?
I have no idea what you’re trying to say then. My point was that you don’t really get to claim that the newer shows started drifting from TNGs hopefulness when DS9 had the darkest storylines imaginable with people being cannon fodder during a war.
You do understand that what current Trek shows are sub isn’t dependent on what ds9 did, right?
Hol’up. Pike’s an anachronistic hate-book club fucknut? WTF? When? Where? How’d I miss that?
You didn’t miss it because it isn’t true.
Phew. 🥹
I haven’t gotten to watch it yet, but is it played as a positive example of how Christianity could exist in the far future? I could tolerate that at least
Yeah I’m here for science fiction not complete lunacy like the idea that Christianity is a positive force.
Okay yeah but… I have an old, horrid maga coworker who likes ST. That confuses me. But if that old harridan got to see an example of someone being normal about Christianity and it gave her a way to be less fucked up, that’s a price I’m willing to pay
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I’m not done with S03 but it’s fairly minor, to be fair. He talks about being an altar boy (meaning there’s organized Catholics still around) and says the lord’s prayer when he’s stressed.
It just leaves a nasty taste in my mouth, because I so enjoyed the idea of a utopian future where these violent structures were left in humanity’s past.
You’re missing out a part of his backstory from Season 2 of Discovery.
His father taught Science and Comparative Religion which led to a messy household where he barely agreed with his father. His father pushed him to be more involved in religion but he disagreed with all of it.
When he prays in Season 3, he specifically says “Okay fine Dad” just before doing it, signaling that it’s not something he agrees with but something that his father kept saying and he’s like “Alright fine i’ll try it your way”. Also saying ‘when he’s stressed’ is kind of disingenuous. It’s when
spoiler
The love of his life is dying in front of him and the only time he has ever felt loss like this before was when his father died.
That’s not really a “when he’s stressed” moment so much as “When his world is ending” moment.
Yanno that makes more sense, still wish they’d keep it outta there. “That nonsense is centuries behind us!”
It’s a poor and unnecessary choice to add any element of religion into his character and it just ends up looking like “Christian representation” and that feels stupid as hell.
You just admitted to not knowing the full context. It doesn’t look like “Christian Representation” if you actually know the full story and aren’t cherrypicking…
But let me list a bunch of human based religion in Star Trek because I’m getting tired of hearing this whole nonsense of “RELIGION DOESN’T BELONG IN STAR TREK” when it’s been there since the beginning.
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In Balance of Terror there is an altar and a Cross when Kirk is marrying the crewman.
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Kirk says "Man has no need for gods. We find the one quite sufficient." in Who Mounrs for Adonais. That straight up implies that Kirk believes in a monotheistic religion.
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Spock quotes the bible in The Trouble with Tribbles when he compares them to “lilies of the field”.
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In Bread and Circuses, Spock says that ‘Sun worship is a primitive superstition’ but Uhura then says “It’s not the sun up in the sky. It’s the Son of God”. Doesn’t suggest that she’s religious but does imply that religion is around and she’s knowledgable in it.
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Bones says Spock would need him in the lions den. This leads to Spock saying “Daniel, as I recall, only had his faith”. Again, Spock directly referencing the bible.
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In Ultimate Computer, the M5 computer says “Murder is contrary to the laws of man and God”
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In The Empath, two researchers are talking to one another. One says “In His hands are the deep places of the Earth. Psalm 95, Verse 4.” The other researcher then says “Looks like He was listening”. So, you’ve got religious humans.
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In That Which Survives you’ve got a bridge officer with a traditional Hindu symbol on her head.
And that’s just TOS. So timeline wise, Pike having any sort of religious affinity fits in perfectly. Same with him having any religious inkling fitting in with Star Trek continuity. You can call it nonsense all you want but it was in the universe during that time and was concretely cemented as such. It is lore accurate.
But I’m sure someone eventually is going to see this comment and go “Yeah but they changed.”
Yeah.
No.
Let’s look at TNG!
In Data’s Day, he mentions a Hindu festival of lights.
In Journey’s End, Picard talks about having respect for American Indians having spirit quests.
In Generations, Picard has the most hyper traditional Christmas you could possible imagine.
In Sub Rosa, Amen is straight up said at the funeral and there’s a church beside the graveyard.
DS9? Gotcha.
Joseph Sisko straight up recites the bible to Ben in Far Beyond the Stars. You know, as well as appearing as a priest. This being after Sisko himself had said “There are things I believe in” while not clarifying and Kasidy Yates talked about having a priest perform the wedding.
Voyager? Doc literally acts as a Roman Catholic priest.
Enterprise? Phlox dresses up as a priest during one of Archer’s hallucination about Porthos’ funeral.
There just… isn’t a leg to stand on in saying that Religion has no place in Star Trek. It’s a part of humanity. I might think it’s stupid and the worst thing we’ve ever created but we did create it and it’s not going anywhere when it’s baked into every culture on earth. Goodbye means god be with ye.
Oh oh oh I see, you wanted to have a debate because you’re very passionate about this. Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought we were two fans expressing subjective opinions.
Enjoy the rest of the week!
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Right, except that the established ethos is that religions are not really all that compatible with the federation vision of the future and almost always lead to people doing horrible irrational shit.
You’re talking about the values implicit to ST; those are my values, but if we’re people with values from an ideal future just talking about what should be on TV to hopefully get us home someday, I don’t think I’m wrong to suggest that “deradicalising content aimed at Christians” is appropriate. That’s all.
Making Christians think that their insane hate-fueled bullshit is compatible with a idealized image of the future is the opposite of “deradicalising,” it is legitimizing.
That is like suggesting that we should portray some “good” examples of racism and bigotry, you know, so that racists and bigots will feel included.
Your feelings are valid, and I think we share the same goals. I wish there was a clearer path to achieve them. I’m only thinking out loud here, I hope that’s clear.
He’s not really Christian.
His father taught science but also comparative religion which led to Christopher getting kinda… confused. He ended up disagreeing with his father a lot before his father passed away when he was fairly young. This is talked about in Discovery Season 2.
Due to this, Pike has a sort of ‘nostalgia’ for Christianity with the connection to his father. There are a couple of scenes (in SNW) where he talked about the fact that he doesn’t pray and isn’t into it himself but that his father asked him to. He does pray in a scene but it is even started off by him talking to his father by saying “You win dad” and starts reciting the lords prayer. He’s not actually religious himself but in the scene in which it happens it’s done as a demonstration that Pike has done literally everything that he can in all of his science prowess and in a sign of sheer desperation falls back to the worry he had with the loss of his father and starts focusing on something his father taught him.
“And if you can do better, then I encourage any Star Trek fan that has a vision for Star Trek in the future — by golly, come to Hollywood, go in and pitch CBS Paramount with your vision for Star Trek, and definitely write a part for me. That’s all. That’s my best advice.”
Picardo is the best
Trek stories I would watch:
- A show entirely about the Klingon chef’s restaurant on DS9.
- Really anything about the non-warrior Klingon castes. Who wrote all that opera? Who created their warp tech?
- Romulan spycraft
- Bajoran war stories about the occupation
- Data’s life between TNG and Picard.
- Geordi doing trek-tech mythbusters
- Good ol’ fashioned episodic 5 year missions
this isn’t hard. there’s a whole fuckin universe established.
These Star Trek actors seem pretty hostile to viewers.
Have you seen how hostile viewers are to the actors?
Actors have a larger reach than a Twitter troll, though. So it sounds like they’re hostile to people that haven’t really done anything. It just comes off as much more combative when we only see one side.
More Lower Decks
“Let’s see you do any better” is such a nonsense retort. People don’t have to produce better output in order to have a valid opinion. I don’t have to be able to sing well in order to tell when someone else is singing badly.
You’d have a point if he didn’t literally invite people to send in pitches for stuff they want to see. It wasn’t a dismissal, it was a challenge.
You seem to have missed my point. It doesn’t matter if the fans can come up with better ideas or not. Their opinion is 100% valid even if the fan can’t create anything better.
Also, it’s almost definitely not an actual invitation for fans to submit ideas. It’s very well known that for legal reasons writers aren’t allowed to read fan ideas because then everything the writer writes in the future would be ripe for plagiarism lawsuits
You seem to have missed my point.
No. I really didn’t. You missed his. The only thing you’ve quoted so far is the line in the headline. Let me quote the entire chunk of text.
“I see fans who say, ‘We own the IP. We own the property because we’ve watched it for so many years.’ Which is kind of not really true. The property is kind of owned by the studio, and the studio decides to invest in a particular pitch and a writer. And if you can do better, then I encourage any Star Trek fan that has a vision for Star Trek in the future — by golly, come to Hollywood, go in and pitch CBS Paramount with your vision for Star Trek, and definitely write a part for me. That’s all. That’s my best advice.”
As demonstrated… no. It is not a “nonsense retort”.
I have seen so many ideas from so many people who very likely could do better, over the years. I hope his inbox is already flooded with a million of them.
