It’s not fun interacting with them when they often want to engage in ad hominems. This is why I have no interest in the tankie triad.

  • [deleted]@lemmy.worldEnglish
    0·
    11 months ago

    It’s like nuance doesn’t exist.

    Yes, there were a lot of false accounts of rape on October 7th that were obviously framed based on hateful stereotypes intended to dehumanize. There were also actual rapes that did happen. But to some people everything is black and white and all they care about is whoever is on their ‘side’.

    • goat@sh.itjust.worksMEnglish
      1·
      11 months ago

      You’ll need to supply evidence for those claims. Creating false accounts of rape is very serious.

      • PhilipTheBucket@quokk.auEnglish
        0·
        11 months ago

        https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm

        I’ve read the whole report, that’s a short summary created by the UN investigators. Basic TL;DR of the whole situation:

        • Rape of Israeli women by people invading on October 7th was widespread
        • The report stops short of claiming it was done by “Hamas” or in any systematized or sanctioned fashion. A lot of people who took part in the attack were not Hamas, and it was totally impossible to sort out which specific person had done any specific attack, so they didn’t make that claim. It happened a lot though.
        • The Israeli government and the New York Times both lied about some specific instances of rape, just because it’s in both of their DNA to make up pro-Israel bullshit. The investigators who made the report debunked some of the Israeli government’s claims, which was easy, and based their findings mostly on objective evidence instead of what anyone from Israel told them.

        That’s the short version. Various people have seized on point #2 or point #3 to claim that point #1 didn’t happen, but it did.

        Also, I think that some people on Lemmy love bringing this up, because it winds up painting anyone who cares about the truth into the “pro-Israel” side of the debate, and then they can call them a Zionist.

        Anyway, yes, the people who did October 7th definitely raped a lot of people. It doesn’t mean Israel should be committing a genocide. If it helps clarify things, the Israeli government has been facilitating aid for Hamas for years because they love having things like October 7th happen and give them excuses, and they love when Hamas rapes people or takes hostages, for the same reason. They wish it would happen every day, and so then they could talk about it and pretend even harder that shooting little kids in the groin or starving entire families to death is totally justified.

        • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.socialEnglish
          1·
          11 months ago

          Rape of Israeli women by people invading on October 7th was widespread

          Can you specifically cite this? Specifically, I don’t see anything in the report that is as definitive as “was widespread”. The actual words I see in their report is:

          there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred

          edit: here’s a link to the actual report

          From the official report, this is based on patterns that are described as ‘partially or fully naked victims’, but they specifically say that they cannot verify specific instances beyond this type of “circumstantial” evidence or eyewitness testimony. They even say:

          It must be noted that witnesses and sources with whom the mission team engaged adopted over time an increasingly cautious and circumspect approach regarding past accounts, including in some cases retracting statements made previously. Some also stated to the mission team that they no longer felt confident in their recollections of other assertions that had appeared in the media.

          Considering that these reports are often cited as justification for various war crimes and acts of genocide, it’s extremely important to be precise with language and delineate what is definitively known vs what is assumed.