It’s not fun interacting with them when they often want to engage in ad hominems. This is why I have no interest in the tankie triad.
It’s not only that, they complain about everything with such fury cant they be happy about anything they have in life?
It’s not fun interacting with them
Semi related: Something weird has been going on at dbzer0 yesterday and today. They are not normally tankies, they always seemed like they were just kind of sensible and doing their own thing, but since the time of the “pro AI” vs “anti AI” thing they now seem to have declared absolute scorched earth war on “the liberals” in the same way that the triad always has.
It’s like all the issues all of a sudden came out at once. The Dragonfucker argument is back, someone has been following me around all day and hectoring me on random topics and just told me UniversalMonk did nothing wrong, they all of a sudden hate PugJesus with a hundreds-of-comments-wild-personal-attacks passion, the “anti-AI troll” banning random people mod is now posting tankie stuff… it’s fuckin’ nuts. It came out of nowhere.
dbzer0 is an Anarchist instance: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
It’s like all the issues all of a sudden came out at once. The Dragonfucker argument is back, someone has been following me around all day and hectoring me on random topics and just told me UniversalMonk did nothing wrong, they all of a sudden hate PugJesus with a hundreds-of-comments-wild-personal-attacks passion, the “anti-AI troll” banning random people mod is now posting tankie stuff… it’s fuckin’ nuts. It came out of nowhere.
At least the drag and PugJesus issues are related, as that’s why PJ got banned on Blahaj: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39039162
I pointed this out to you in the !fediverselore@lemmy.ca thread and you acknowledged it: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20253309
Not sure why you’re saying it’s coming out of nowhere when you are aware of that link.
People aren’t following you around, they reply to comments you make about the whole situation
The “anti-AI troll” come up due to this comment: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20270123
Pug has always been right on the Tankie line. I’ve had multiple accounts banned after interactions with them.
What did he accuse you of doing?
Edit: Wait. How did PugJesus ban your account?
I’m assuming liberal use of discord and the report buttons. Zero actual evidence of even trying to understand. Just seems highly correlated.
As for what I do? I suppose I don’t feel we need an entire global system breakdown to fix some of the world’s challenges (I can be roughly described as a centrist).
So you don’t have proof of your accusations.
Ah, so I’m right. And now we see the people with a high school emotional maturity come out.
Edit: Yep, knew how this was gonna go.
My guy, you’re not even on topic 🤣
Trying to turn this from pug is a borderline Tankie to court presentable evidence that pug doesn’t get people banned 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
They are not normally tankies
What, in your opinion, makes us “tankies” from what you just said? Respect for the neopronouns, intolerance towards Genai-hater trolls, or mod actions towards someone who went on a harassment campaign towards one of our users?
Anarchists always had very similar critiques towards capitalism as Marxists. Where we differ is what we do about it, and these actions is what can label someone a “tankie”
How about denial of UN-verified sexual assault because it happened against Bad Camp?
It’s like nuance doesn’t exist.
Yes, there were a lot of false accounts of rape on October 7th that were obviously framed based on hateful stereotypes intended to dehumanize. There were also actual rapes that did happen. But to some people everything is black and white and all they care about is whoever is on their ‘side’.
You’ll need to supply evidence for those claims. Creating false accounts of rape is very serious.
https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm
I’ve read the whole report, that’s a short summary created by the UN investigators. Basic TL;DR of the whole situation:
- Rape of Israeli women by people invading on October 7th was widespread
- The report stops short of claiming it was done by “Hamas” or in any systematized or sanctioned fashion. A lot of people who took part in the attack were not Hamas, and it was totally impossible to sort out which specific person had done any specific attack, so they didn’t make that claim. It happened a lot though.
- The Israeli government and the New York Times both lied about some specific instances of rape, just because it’s in both of their DNA to make up pro-Israel bullshit. The investigators who made the report debunked some of the Israeli government’s claims, which was easy, and based their findings mostly on objective evidence instead of what anyone from Israel told them.
That’s the short version. Various people have seized on point #2 or point #3 to claim that point #1 didn’t happen, but it did.
Also, I think that some people on Lemmy love bringing this up, because it winds up painting anyone who cares about the truth into the “pro-Israel” side of the debate, and then they can call them a Zionist.
Anyway, yes, the people who did October 7th definitely raped a lot of people. It doesn’t mean Israel should be committing a genocide. If it helps clarify things, the Israeli government has been facilitating aid for Hamas for years because they love having things like October 7th happen and give them excuses, and they love when Hamas rapes people or takes hostages, for the same reason. They wish it would happen every day, and so then they could talk about it and pretend even harder that shooting little kids in the groin or starving entire families to death is totally justified.
Rape of Israeli women by people invading on October 7th was widespread
Can you specifically cite this? Specifically, I don’t see anything in the report that is as definitive as “was widespread”. The actual words I see in their report is:
there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred
edit: here’s a link to the actual report
From the official report, this is based on patterns that are described as ‘partially or fully naked victims’, but they specifically say that they cannot verify specific instances beyond this type of “circumstantial” evidence or eyewitness testimony. They even say:
It must be noted that witnesses and sources with whom the mission team engaged adopted over time an increasingly cautious and circumspect approach regarding past accounts, including in some cases retracting statements made previously. Some also stated to the mission team that they no longer felt confident in their recollections of other assertions that had appeared in the media.
Considering that these reports are often cited as justification for various war crimes and acts of genocide, it’s extremely important to be precise with language and delineate what is definitively known vs what is assumed.
I didn’t say you were tankies, I actually said you were not. I just said something weird was going on with dbzer0. Your comment here, I say without really meaning any hostility by it, is more weird stuff.
Every single one of the issues you’ve listed, you’ve reframed it into something different than it was. Neopronouns were never the issue, it was blahaj shielding a transphobic troll from criticism and banning people who complained about them (complained about them while using accepted pronouns, usually while explicitly saying ‘yes I’m fine using people’s pronouns’), purely because the troll cleverly decided to involve neopronouns into the issue. And then pretending that anyone who was on the “enemy” side was obviously a pronoun-hater and that was the entirety of the issue.
Intolerance towards genAI-hater trolls was never the issue, it was random mod actions against people who were not genAI-hater trolls. And then pretending that anyone who got the random unwarranted mod action was probably a genAI-hater troll.
Both of those are the dishonest framings that the people defending whatever weird decision love to use. And, no matter how often it’s pointed out to them that some other people disagree with their framing, they simply ignore it, as if the person hadn’t said anything at all, and repeat the framing that conveniently makes their answer the only possible answer. That is textbook tankie-instance behavior. It’s part of what makes them insufferable to try to talk with. Even if your politics are clearly not tankie.
And, of course:
someone who went on a harassment campaign towards one of our users
Aha!
“One of our users.”
That’s the root of the issue, to me. You’re starting to treat “your users” differently than other users.
One of your users spent part of yesterday following me around and replying to me in a few different threads demanding that I take part in an argument I’d already addressed and then told them I wasn’t interested in continuing. Is that harassment? No, because it’s your users.
There’s this massive thread accusing PugJesus of all kinds of stuff: That he’s pro-Israel, that he’s a terminally online weirdo loser, that he never backs up anything he says, that he bans anyone who criticizes Israel, that he’s transphobic and doesn’t respect people’s pronouns, that he’s a twat, and so on. That’s completely fine, because he’s a “lib.” He’s the enemy. We can all yell at him, insult him, nothing needs to be justified, it’s a big hateful groupthink that defines things in terms of enemies (and a crucial part is twisting things around so that someone can be defined as a horrifying enemy in some way, which is why they’re pretending he is pro-Israel) and in-groups. Why is that all okay? Because he’s not one of your users. He’s the out-group, he is a liberal apparently.
In some forums, that kind of thing is disallowed. If you make personal attacks or insults, you get mod action. If you pretend someone said something they didn’t say to stir up shit, you get mod action. Ada’s description from a different domain was actually pretty good: There are certain types of respect that are not “a reward for good behaviour.” They’re just what we need to do for each other to keep the community on the rails. On most of Lemmy, the mod action for violating that kind of respect is overtly one-sided; if you’re in the in-group, it’s allowed, if you’re aiming it towards the in-group, then you get mod action because it’s a crisis.
Does that one-sided moderation, and officially badjacketing people as “Zionists” and genocide supporters and then going full-bore against them as a result, mean you’re tankies? Not in the literal sense, no. But you’re starting to act like the tankie instances, all of a sudden, when it seems to me like you used to be chill and sensible. You had your politics but you weren’t dishonestly attacking and moderating against anyone who had some different kind of politics, and mobbing up against them like Lord of the Flies. Now it seems like you are, and it happened (from my POV at least) all of a sudden out of nowhere, and it’s weird to me.
(Yes, I know what badjacketing means. I placed it in the sentence the way I did to make a point.)
I disagree with your framing. I think you’re being dishonest in your framing on what caused the mod actions. At the end of the day we and Ada are beholden to our respective users, and as it turns out, they think those were the right choices.
And yes, we’re going to take action about harassment of our own users, that’s the duty of an instance admin. I want to point out however that all this brouhaha is over a 7days ban. Literally the mildest of punishments ever, and you’re at the point of pondering what’s rotten in the whole instance and writing walls of text, over a short term “chill out” ban.
Downvoting a divide by zero user is apparently harassment.
People say this stuff and then claim that we’re doing bad faith takes. Go figure.
As we know, bad faith is when you defend yourself with evidence and good faith is when you make shit up to slander people and groups.
They are very smart.
That’s literally the reason you cited, and the admin ban, for all of this
If you feel that statement is in bad faith, maybe you should have a talk with Unruffled about their wanton banning of users for “mod abuse” over users downvoting them.
Why, yes s it is bad faith to misrepresent the cause of the mod action and then double down on it.
In any case, feel free to open a yptb post if you’re do certain our cause was trivial.
I disagree with your framing. I think you’re being dishonest in your framing on what caused the mod actions.
I can’t count how many times someone on or off blahaj tried to explain that Dragonrider’s trolling, encouraging other users to suicide, things like that, were the core of the issue. If you really want to join Ada in pretending that there’s a whole Lemmy population that’s just frothing at the mouth to dictate to other people what pronouns they can and can’t use, and that was what got them heated up about Dragonrider and nothing about any of the other stuff, I won’t stop you. I started to dig up old messages to put together a timeline, but then I realized I don’t care and I think the issue is pretty clear enough already.
At the end of the day we and Ada are beholden to our respective users, and as it turns out, they think those were the right choices.
This was pretty much my point. lemmy.ml and Hexbear love how their admins behave, and that’s all the admins feel like they need to know. My point was that (a) you’re starting to operate along the same lines, it looks like, and (b) that’s not always a good thing.
I want to point out however that all this brouhaha is over a 7days ban.
Personally, I don’t care about the ban itself. I actually agree with you that PugJesus making a whole community to whine about how unfair it is is kind of childish. I care more about the bullying and fact-free mentality, that big thread with people making up nonsense about the target of the day.
Honestly, I think calling what’s ongoing “bullying” is kinda strange. If anything we wanted to cool the situation down.
This was pretty much my point. lemmy.ml and Hexbear love how their admins behave, and that’s all the admins feel like they need to know. My point was that (a) you’re starting to operate along the same lines, it looks like, and (b) that’s not always a good thing.
I would rather show me which admins are more centered on what every rando on the internet thinks. Then I can point you to someone about to have a burnout.
Honestly, I think calling what’s ongoing “bullying” is kinda strange. If anything we wanted to cool the situation down.
Quotes from the thread:
The person in question is extremely rude and toxic. I have reached out to the LW admins regarding that he seems unfit to be moderating a dozen medium to larger communities. Unfortunately i didnt get any reply.
I think he’s an obnoxious dickhead
I remember his username and him being a twat
He’s a genocide-supporting Zionist radlib
a goddam stalker
an angry turbolib who blames the left (and Eugene in particular, for some reason) for the pathetic failure of the corporate-c**k-sucking Democrats
And so on. There’s plenty more, that’s just what I had patience to dig up.
I would rather show me which admins are more centered on what every rando on the internet thinks.
Those aren’t the only two options lol. I’m just saying that “Our users/tribe love that we always take the side of our users/tribe no matter the facts of the situation!” isn’t the good justification that it sounds like, when you phrase it differently than I just did.
Quotes from the thread:
Not sure which thread you mean, but If you think people expressing their low opinions about someone is “bullying”, then, well you haven’t experienced bullying. And also, what the hell do you expect of dbzer0 admins to do about people expressing such opinions? You want us to go around protecting the people you like from public opinion? Like, this is a legit absurd argument path.
Those aren’t the only two options lol. I’m just saying that “Our users/tribe love that we always take the side of our users/tribe no matter the facts of the situation!”
It’s easy to look right when fighting against strawmen.
This was pretty much my point. lemmy.ml and Hexbear love how their admins behave, and that’s all the admins feel like they need to know. My point was that (a) you’re starting to operate along the same lines, it looks like, and (b) that’s not always a good thing.
Any admins should act upon harassment of one of their users, especially if the admins of the harassers don’t.
I care more about the bullying and fact-free mentality, that big thread with people making up nonsense about the target of the day.
Isn’t that the concept of !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com since its inception?
Multithread crashout with enough paragraphs typed to fill a novella. This level of drama might be peak Lemmy thought crime policing. Peak liberal vs tankie on a topic unrelated to it. This thread (an argument loadstone which was irresistible) and the time ya’ll have spent in is incredible. That’s just imo, of course.
But keep going, I’m loving reading all this!
It’s like drama in academia: It starts to become this titanic bitter struggle which causes people to lose their goddamned minds and fight to the ends of the earth, precisely because the stakes are so small.
Well fucking said!
If I had more time and less depression, I’d start making YouTube videos breaking down this drama. Someone is gonna make a lot of money on that idea.
I legit thought about sending Strange Æons a message summarizing some of the main drama. It might be too reddit-y for her to be into, but I agree. Bottom line, it’s a fuckin’ gold mine.
That’s a good idea, need someone Lemmy-brained like she’s Tumblr-brained tho. Those people are forged, the community might still be too young.
that he’s a terminally online weirdo
that he’s a twat,
I mean tbf both of those are at least true
Every single one of the issues you’ve listed, you’ve reframed it into something different than it was. Neopronouns were never the issue, it was blahaj shielding a transphobic troll from criticism and banning people who complained about them (complained about them while using accepted pronouns, usually while explicitly saying ‘yes I’m fine using people’s pronouns’), purely because the troll cleverly decided to involve neopronouns into the issue. And then pretending that anyone who was on the “enemy” side was obviously a pronoun-hater and that was the entirety of the issue.
That’s your framing of the situation.
An alternative perspective is that the “pronouns cannot relate to imaginary creatures” is gender gatekeeping.
Drag was potentially trolling, but if nobody ever took the bait, nothing would have happened.https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39039162
We can all yell at him, insult him, nothing needs to be justified
People brought justifications
- https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20291091
- https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20280072
- https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20272950
- https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20253309
In some forums, that kind of thing is disallowed. If you make personal attacks or insults, you get mod action
Direct attacks are usually removed
- https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20291178?sort=New&view=Flat
- https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/ddc733ed-c006-4c9c-a2d3-a89f1598ec8e.png
You had your politics but you weren’t dishonestly attacking
I’m am going to be honest with you, I didn’t expect you to make this kind of comments
Cool! Now accuse him of caring way too much about politics, and getting in heated debates about it like a LOSER, speaking as you are from your lemmy.ml address. That’ll make perfect sense too.
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20291493
Also, not sure why it’s not okay for dbzer0 to have a “our users” stance while you broadly categorize all .ml users as “losers”
Good God. Okay, you asked for a response, here is it.
An alternative perspective is that the “pronouns cannot relate to imaginary creatures” is gender gatekeeping. Drag was potentially trolling, but if nobody ever took the bait, nothing would have happened.
Using unusual pronouns was never the issue. It’s insanely common on blahaj for people to use neopronouns, and nobody bats an eye, because it’s normal. Pretending that being trans is equivalent to being a dragon (along with things like encouraging other users to self-harm, because of course this person did, because they are a troll and trying to be cruel to trans people) was the issue.
I cannot fathom how me repeating this for the nth time here is somehow going to make a difference, but whatever. You said something, I’ve replied. Can I go now?
People brought justifications
Fair enough, there were some things that people justified, I shouldn’t have said “nothing” I guess. My argument is that there was a ton of stuff that was not justified, and some of the criticism once we got down to actual events motte-and-baileyed its way back from “he is a Zionist who deletes any criticism of Israel and a transphobe” and into “he gets mad arguing about politics and I don’t like that”, and some of it was literal just random abuse and cursing at him, not connected to any type of event or behavior at all.
Direct attacks are usually removed
Direct attacks in some contexts are removed. In other contexts, they’re allowed. That was my point. I’m actually fine with either policy, broadly speaking, but starting to forbid mild attacks towards friends and allow wild, profane, fact-free attacks towards enemies is a bad road to start to go down. That was much more the core of my point.
You had your politics but you weren’t dishonestly attacking
I’m am going to be honest with you, I didn’t expect you to make this kind of comments
Pretending that PJ is pro-Israel is flagrantly dishonest. It’s also working very well. That’s a good example. Not sure what your complaint here is, I don’t really want to dig through the thread picking out stuff that’s objectively untrue, but that’s one example if you’re saying you don’t believe me about it.
Also, not sure why it’s not okay for dbzer0 to have a “our users” stance while you broadly categorize all .ml users as “losers”
I addressed this already, I never said people who care about politics are losers. I am a person that argues way too much on and off the internet about politics. My point was that for lemmy.ml to suddenly feel like caring about and arguing about politics on the internet makes someone a weirdo is just another example of the sort of tribal “it’s fine with I do it, but when you do it it is evidence you’re some kind of terrible thing” thinking that I am trying to call out.
Satisfied? I’ve already talked about literally all of this, I’m not interested in going back and forth about it just without end. But sure, there’s your response if you want one.
https://sopuli.xyz/post/30935971/18041817
As said in the other comment, it’s good that you clarified the “loser comment”
Beyond that, we discussed most of the stuff in the other comment
Just to reiterate,
It’s up to you. I think it would be good to have another !yptb community that’s not satire or a one person creation.
You could potentially enforce more respectful discussions there.
I think Philip was referring to the venom and hostility on display from some lately. I said something similar to pug last night. To be clear it isn’t you or anything you’ve done.
And I fully understand the recoiling at some of the hyper reflexive venom on display from a few when anything regarding AI is brought up. It’s a tool, and neither good or bad on its own. But some squeal like drama queens if you even bring it up.
Conversely the other day I had someone from your instance call me, someone who would at least be a syndicist a shit-lib. Because I made a point of calling for solidarity and mutual aid, pointing out that our failures to do so are part of what has led us to the current points of crisis we find ourselves in. I had a bit of a chuckle at the tanky talk. But it wasn’t something completely isolated. Though again I’m gonna reiterate. None of this involves you. And you aren’t their keeper. They are adults who can make their own decisions and mistakes.
Ye, we obviously can have some acerbic users as well, can’t avoid it 12k registrations. But if someone is too toxic consistently, we tend to get rid of them. Still doesn’t make the instance tankie thought 😅
No, you don’t get rid of them. They become mods of multiple communities.
Nobody is accusing the instance of being literal tankies, they are pointing out that the behavior is consistent with common tankie behavior.
Feel free to make a ytpb post about it and we can see what people think about such mods
There are multiple posts there already about the topic including the most popular one that was locked because the mods kept failing to understand what anyone was saying.
If you want to know what people think, check out the up to down vote ratio in the comments. Feel free to accuse .world of brigading like those mods or whatever other stupid excuse based on a lack of understanding how instance populations work.
I was banned because Unruffled is a petty jerk, so I won’t be posting another thread about the same topic of how petty and toxic a small group of prolific mods of dbzer0 communities are. Pointing that out is clearly not allowed in yptb.
Sure, buddy.
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/modlog/961853
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/48662871
Holy FUCK lol
I knew things were getting weird but I had no idea. I can’t even begin to unpack all the layers of this. There’s too much.
“How dare you speak ill of the people above you, disagree with their decisions and explain why even, on this YPTB sub. That is classed as ‘pissy’ and ‘shitty’ and will earn a perma ban for those reasons. Meanwhile, if you have a grudge against a ‘turbolib’, here are some handy slurs you might want to use…”
I still also can’t fathom the apparently successful effort to start to split people into “pro AI” and “anti AI” camps.
But if someone is too toxic consistently, we tend to get rid of them.
What if they are admins that seem to follow someone or at least constantly be needlessly rude and aggressive towards and lie about a certain individual?
(Not to make any claims or anything about dbzer0 being tankie)
Anyone solid in our instance can request an admin recall with a vote
So, if there is a feedback loop where if dbzer0 users are ultimately okay with an admin harassing people, then the toxicity can persist? As long as they can convince others with lies then the admin can get away with it? That “tend to” in my quote seems to be doing some real heavy lifting, from my perspective.
You’d prefer that one person decide by fiat what’s OK or not? I don’t know about you but I find democracy superior to dictatorship, even when nominally “benevolent” .
For people reading this
I’m not sure that comment serves you the most, but sure
just told me UniversalMonk did nothing wrong
Bro, I love you, but you never miss an opportunity to bring my name up in your posts. I ain’t got nothing to do with whatever it is you’re going on about, friend. And by the way, I didn’t do anything wrong, so whoever told you that is right!
That whole thing got debunked quite quickly https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49344640/20291854
Thanks for being a neutral and logical in this thing.
I think with Philipthebucket, he’s just letting his annoyance with me overtake the logic he usually has. I’ve seen past posts of his where he’s showing timestamps, logins, receipts etc to backup his point. But in this particular issue w me, he seems to be letting his feelings take over rather than his usual logic.
Most of his talk about me lately is just “Because of course Universal Monk is…” sorta statements. Which isn’t really a good standard. If we’re going to use his logic that I’m involved in something just because I’m commenting about a subject in a thread talking about the subject, then he’s involved in it too. And you. And everyone who replies to a thread.
I kinda tried to follow the issues that he’s reporting, but it’s all over the place and he’s naming so many people. I just couldn’t follow it all. I have no clue what the actual frustration is. Is he for the anti-ai people or against them? Like what is he mad about?
I know I sometimes I give you shit about your takes, but you’re a pretty stand-up guy. I still disagree with a lot of your opinions about me, but fuck all, you stay neutral more often than not, so I can respect that and I respect you. (most of the time, haha)
Tbh, dbzer0 was always kind of sus to me
Same, it always felt off to me. Maybe it’s the tankies from the triad that were block and couldn’t get their propaganda out so they are hiding behind a non tankie isntance
