I disagree. I think when people encounter extremist speech, they have an initial strong reaction, but then the idea sticks in their head and becomes normalised. Over time, that reaction subsides. The overton window shifts. Those Nazis in the whitehouse have been shifting the overton window right for more than a decade. At first, the public had an initial strong reaction. But then their fascist ideas stuck in their heads and became normalised. And now look where we are! The mainstream left has been pushing moderates like Joe Biden, who don’t provoke any initial strong reactions, but they don’t inspire people either. Their ideas don’t stick in people’s heads. We need more extremists in left wing politics, and we need more extreme leftist messaging.
COWS DON’T WANT TO DIE
We need to keep yelling it until it becomes normalised, and then people will take it seriously. Most people are conformists and will react to anything they haven’t heard before by shutting down. It’s actually kind of useful, evolutionarily, to be a little bit of a conformist, because it helps you fit in and avoid in-group conflict. It lets people work together more easily. But we also need radicals who are willing to shift the normal in a positive direction. And once radical ideas become normalised, only then do most people take the ideas seriously and evaluate the evidence.
Also I did go and research the claim, and it’s true. Temple Grandin designed modern slaughterhouses with semicircular arcs for the cows to walk down, which match their natural herding behaviour. The serpentine passages minimise visual distractions which spook cows, and then lead to a ramp which takes them to the stunning area. The ramp keeps them from being able to see what’s going on until they’re stunned. And then a human knocks them unconscious with a bolt to the brain and slits their throat.
Nothing wants to die. Not even suicidal people. ( Ask anyone who survived an attempt ) Hyperventilating about your messaging isn’t going to make it more convincing.
The murder apes should use their big brains to improve. Because the thing is, the murder apes used their big brains to get too good at killing, and now they’re gonna kill the ecosystems they need to live. If the murder apes can’t grow beyond murder, then they’re a worthless failed species that will cause its own extinction.
Another facet of what I said above: facts don’t matter. Emotions matter. Which is a stupid way to live, but that’s humans.
The average person, if you told them like “the square root of 9 is 3, you fucking idiot” isn’t going to believe you. Which, amusingly, shows they are kind of a fucking idiot.
They wouldn’t necessarily refute the math, but they’d certainly carry from that interaction that math enthusiasts seem like assholes and then not have sympathy when a mathematician is derided publicly.
I didn’t say you were incorrect, I said the manner in which you presented your fact was dismissive counterproductive and leads the other party to believe you’re a fucking imbecile
Right. But that’s a stupid strategy that leads people to believing what the flashy YouTube video says about eating horse medicine to cure cancer instead of the grumpy scientist who makes you feel bad.
You’re not wrong in describing how people behave. I’m saying that behavior is foolish.
Ok now you just missed their point. You’re taking their description of how they wish people were to mean that’s how they believe people actually are, when they explicitly spelled out the opposite.
Maybe you’re doubling down on your bit from above, but it scans as a reading comprehension error to my eyes. It happens. :)
PS sorry to spam you with replies, but you’ve also been prolific in this little clump of comments.
I’m not (intentionally) being rude while knowing that it’s ineffective.
I’m saying the people that believe a flashy YouTube video instead of something uncomfortable are being stupid.
The solution will never be to get them to fall on their face and worship logic. Nor will it be to call them idiots to their face. (Even though some people are so fucking stupid and full of worm paste that I want to scream at them, that’s not appropriate so it stays inside). The solution, unfortunately, needs to be wrapping facts up in ways that make them feel good. We have to cater to this behavior.
Here’s a more concrete example. We do code reviews at work. I could leave a comment that says “Don’t sort this list in place. That’s going to cause a bug at XYZ”. Straight. To the point. I could also leave a comment that says like “hey great work here. And a good call to sort the list! I think you might want to make a copy and sort that so it won’t be weird at XYZ. Thanks so much.”
The latter is a lot fluffier and a little dishonest (it’s clearly not great work), but I have to write more like that. Otherwise people feel bad and whine about it.
I think this is a factor in why people love LLMs so much. They’re always getting fluffed.
What tone? I’m not even vegan, but like you said, they’re just saying all true things. Didn’t denigrate meat eaters as people once except to point out our cognitive dissonance, which I think any reasonable person can cop to.
Imho any friction felt in tone or messaging is coming from within (our own minds, about our discomfort with our choices).
While nothing you have said is incorrect, your tone and messaging is more likely to drive people to the opposite position.
I disagree. I think when people encounter extremist speech, they have an initial strong reaction, but then the idea sticks in their head and becomes normalised. Over time, that reaction subsides. The overton window shifts. Those Nazis in the whitehouse have been shifting the overton window right for more than a decade. At first, the public had an initial strong reaction. But then their fascist ideas stuck in their heads and became normalised. And now look where we are! The mainstream left has been pushing moderates like Joe Biden, who don’t provoke any initial strong reactions, but they don’t inspire people either. Their ideas don’t stick in people’s heads. We need more extremists in left wing politics, and we need more extreme leftist messaging.
COWS DON’T WANT TO DIE
We need to keep yelling it until it becomes normalised, and then people will take it seriously. Most people are conformists and will react to anything they haven’t heard before by shutting down. It’s actually kind of useful, evolutionarily, to be a little bit of a conformist, because it helps you fit in and avoid in-group conflict. It lets people work together more easily. But we also need radicals who are willing to shift the normal in a positive direction. And once radical ideas become normalised, only then do most people take the ideas seriously and evaluate the evidence.
Also I did go and research the claim, and it’s true. Temple Grandin designed modern slaughterhouses with semicircular arcs for the cows to walk down, which match their natural herding behaviour. The serpentine passages minimise visual distractions which spook cows, and then lead to a ramp which takes them to the stunning area. The ramp keeps them from being able to see what’s going on until they’re stunned. And then a human knocks them unconscious with a bolt to the brain and slits their throat.
Nothing wants to die. Not even suicidal people. ( Ask anyone who survived an attempt ) Hyperventilating about your messaging isn’t going to make it more convincing.
Then killing is bad
Killing is the reason that we are here. We are the murder apes. You should never try to bring morality into a factual discussion.
I do completely agree that factory farming and murder are bad for the record.
The murder apes should use their big brains to improve. Because the thing is, the murder apes used their big brains to get too good at killing, and now they’re gonna kill the ecosystems they need to live. If the murder apes can’t grow beyond murder, then they’re a worthless failed species that will cause its own extinction.
Another facet of what I said above: facts don’t matter. Emotions matter. Which is a stupid way to live, but that’s humans.
The average person, if you told them like “the square root of 9 is 3, you fucking idiot” isn’t going to believe you. Which, amusingly, shows they are kind of a fucking idiot.
They wouldn’t necessarily refute the math, but they’d certainly carry from that interaction that math enthusiasts seem like assholes and then not have sympathy when a mathematician is derided publicly.
Conversely one May come to the conclusion that you are a fucking idiot who doesn’t understand communication
That doesn’t change the square root of 9, and it’s stupid to discard facts because the speaker is rude.
I didn’t say you were incorrect, I said the manner in which you presented your fact was dismissive counterproductive and leads the other party to believe you’re a fucking imbecile
Right. But that’s a stupid strategy that leads people to believing what the flashy YouTube video says about eating horse medicine to cure cancer instead of the grumpy scientist who makes you feel bad.
You’re not wrong in describing how people behave. I’m saying that behavior is foolish.
I don’t know how to say this without being rude.
If you understand all of what you have just stated and continue to use an ineffective means of communication…
You might actually be an idiot, regardless of your intellectual prowess.
You’re not going to magically make the 85% of the world population that isn’t autistic suddenly fall down upon their faces and worship logic.
You may know how to play chess, but it doesn’t count for shit if you’re on a checkers board.
Ok now you just missed their point. You’re taking their description of how they wish people were to mean that’s how they believe people actually are, when they explicitly spelled out the opposite.
Maybe you’re doubling down on your bit from above, but it scans as a reading comprehension error to my eyes. It happens. :)
PS sorry to spam you with replies, but you’ve also been prolific in this little clump of comments.
I’m not (intentionally) being rude while knowing that it’s ineffective.
I’m saying the people that believe a flashy YouTube video instead of something uncomfortable are being stupid.
The solution will never be to get them to fall on their face and worship logic. Nor will it be to call them idiots to their face. (Even though some people are so fucking stupid and full of worm paste that I want to scream at them, that’s not appropriate so it stays inside). The solution, unfortunately, needs to be wrapping facts up in ways that make them feel good. We have to cater to this behavior.
Here’s a more concrete example. We do code reviews at work. I could leave a comment that says “Don’t sort this list in place. That’s going to cause a bug at XYZ”. Straight. To the point. I could also leave a comment that says like “hey great work here. And a good call to sort the list! I think you might want to make a copy and sort that so it won’t be weird at XYZ. Thanks so much.”
The latter is a lot fluffier and a little dishonest (it’s clearly not great work), but I have to write more like that. Otherwise people feel bad and whine about it.
I think this is a factor in why people love LLMs so much. They’re always getting fluffed.
You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Rofl beautifully put, communication is multidimensional
What tone? I’m not even vegan, but like you said, they’re just saying all true things. Didn’t denigrate meat eaters as people once except to point out our cognitive dissonance, which I think any reasonable person can cop to.
Imho any friction felt in tone or messaging is coming from within (our own minds, about our discomfort with our choices).