the heart of the issue seems to be the legitimacy that voting gives to a system – participate if you chose do, just do so w the awareness of the fact your participation was more beneficial to the status quo than it was to you.
and, yes, you do need to do more than just vote; but if you lack an understanding of why your increased participate is now necessary you’ll be treading water at best – like the democrats.
there have been people who’ve been in this situation before and wrote down what they did with the benefit hindsight included – if you look at their stuff you’ll find out what you need to do beyond voting.
The system gets legitimacy from the 150 million people who vote. A tiny minority of leftists refusing to participate does not delegitimize the system one iota. As a cis hetero white man, honestly my vote either way doesn’t affect me all that much, other than maybe being thrown in jail for leftist organizing. But it also doesn’t really affect the status quo either. I vote to benefit the people who would suffer under one choice more than the other: people of color, women, the LGBTQ community, immigrants, etc.
And yes, obviously we need to build an alternative where no one suffers, but that takes time. Personally, I prefer to at least attempt to minimize the suffering of others during that time. Accelerationism is sociopathy.
you’re either unwilling or unable to see that the things that the accelerationists want is the eventual outcome anyways because of the way the system is intentionally structured and history proves that nature will ensure that the commeuppance gets worse the longer we put off making a change.
turning the election into a farce through a lack of cooperating they way they want you to is the easiest & laziest way for an american to help induce such a change, but it will not work if too many people are unable/unwilling to see past the parliamentary mind games that makes you think that you’re helping the people they’re holding ransom for your vote.
I vote to benefit the people who would suffer under one choice more than the other: people of color, women, the LGBTQ community, immigrants, etc.
as a neurospicy queer brown immigrant, i implore you to stop.
turning the election into a farce through a lack of cooperating they way they want you to is the easiest & laziest way for an american to help induce such a change, but it will not work if too many people are unable/unwilling to see past the parliamentary mind games that makes you think that you’re helping the people they’re holding ransom for your vote.
Too many people are unable to see past the parliamentary mind games. If you can’t persuade a hundred million people, that strategy is pointless and ineffective. You can’t persuade a hundred million people, so this strategy is pointless and ineffective.
No, they’re suffering either way. My heart, and some of my money, goes out to them. But their suffering is not dependent on my vote. If it was, I would vote that way. But it isn’t.
Ah yes, I have you tagged. You only care about the suffering when you can use it as a political cudgel. I remember you told me immigrant children suffering in America was justified because they have the privilege of living in the imperial core, and then justified it saying they would suffer either way.
Your opinion could not possibly hold less value, especially on the topic of the suffering of others. Your performative outrage is disgusting, at least I actually send aid to Palestine.
I remember you told me immigrant children suffering in America was justified because they have the privilege of living in the imperial core, and then justified it saying they would suffer either way.
I said it was not the responsibility for the people outside the imperial core to take care of your children. You would rather other children suffer to have yours not, instead of fixing the system that originates from your fucking country
Like most people in all of history we wouldn’t have opposed the normalized oppression of other people, yes this is a fact.
But you are saying people during slavery were wrong for voting in favor of less slavery because it didn’t start with full human rights for slaves so they shouldn’t have voted at all.
People aren’t spineless for believing in a different strategy and even if they where, you are not selling your point of view very well. The sucess of your strategy would mean conving enough people not to vote and just name calling is not doing much.
There is the obvious Problem of all democracies and especially the US System but i don’t really see how more power to republicans will ever come close solving this.
I am very open to all kinds of strategies but i have yet to see any kind of data that suggests even more fascism will lead to a better outcome.
I wouldn’t have done stupid counterproductive shit that just made things worse without any benefit.
I think the “follower shit” comment betrays your bitterness at not actually having any followers. You’re never going to get your revolution if 99.999% of the population is too “spineless” to caucus with. If you can’t find common ground with other leftists who are already sold on communism because they disagree with your strategy, how in the absolute fuck are you expecting to persuade the liberal working class?
If you hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”, then you really may as well not bother trying, bcs nothing you were trying was ever going to help, and most of it will just strengthen the fascists.
Please point to the part of the meme / title that encouraged voting for anyone let alone anything else. This is just disenpowerment and pushes the narrative that it’s hopeless to try anything at all under the guise of “liberals bad” (which I don’t necessarily disagree with, but this is training people to give up entirely)
So you really did hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”.
You, specifically, should absolutely give up and don’t bother trying.
The system is “self-legitimazing” regardless of how many people choose not to vote. Consider the current president didn’t even get the majority of votes.
Instead of buying into the liberal myth that voting creates legitimacy, look at voting as choosing which boss you are going to fight.
The owner has set up this system where he says you get to choose the boss. Even if you do, at best you get to choose who interprets the owners orders. Spending all your time fighting for one boss or the other or against specifically the boss is the wrong thing to do. The correct thing to do is to fight to get rid of the owner and this system, to create a new system that is truly democratic, that will listen to the workers.
That is certainly not what I am advocating for when I say go vote for who you want to fight against.
The correct thing to do is to fight to get rid of the owner and this system, to create a new system that is truly democratic, that will listen to the workers.
Voting does not prevent you from building dual power.
at best you get to choose who interprets the owners orders.
And that has material consequences. To ignore that is to limit who you are able to work with.
Say the people who have exactly zero interest in fighting against the Democrats. So are you going to be voting for the Republicans? Or are you giving us advice you would never take yourself
Nah, I’m voting for the working family party or peace and freedom when that is an option. Where i live the national always goes dem so there is no chance of spoiling the vote.
Except in Amerika you’re not voting for who you’re fighting against you’re simply voting for which mask the actual people in power put forth (the good pr nice mask (democrats), the tough and mean mask (republican)). The real boss is not the American president, or Congress, etc but the capitalists behind them who you very specifically get no vote on and to who your vote by design has no tangible material effect on.
Being not Amerikan it is true for me in a way but not in the way you’re implying. You genuinely believe your vote at the Amerikan ballot box has tangible material effects on capitalists interests? That’s a pretty extreme stance that even most liberals would retreat from if pressed.
Any revolution predicated on ignoring the material reality of the masses is doomed to fail.
This is a nonsequitor that doesn’t address anything I said.
It’s only a non-sequitor if you replace what I said about the interests of the masses with the interests of the capitalist class.
I get that it is difficult to both participate in the system while also dismantling it - that is by design. It is also designed to alienate those who participate from those who do not. That is one of the ways the system defends itself.
No it remains a nonsequitor as pointing out voting in America is a charade over choosing which mask capital wears as opposed to having any material effect on who is in power (the boss which needs fighting) has nothing to do with being detached from the needs of the masses.
I see. I should have said “vote for where you want to fight; in a concentration camp or in the streets”. I meant it reflects the quality of the fight, not that the fight goes away.
the heart of the issue seems to be the legitimacy that voting gives to a system – participate if you chose do, just do so w the awareness of the fact your participation was more beneficial to the status quo than it was to you.
and, yes, you do need to do more than just vote; but if you lack an understanding of why your increased participate is now necessary you’ll be treading water at best – like the democrats.
there have been people who’ve been in this situation before and wrote down what they did with the benefit hindsight included – if you look at their stuff you’ll find out what you need to do beyond voting.
The system gets legitimacy from the 150 million people who vote. A tiny minority of leftists refusing to participate does not delegitimize the system one iota. As a cis hetero white man, honestly my vote either way doesn’t affect me all that much, other than maybe being thrown in jail for leftist organizing. But it also doesn’t really affect the status quo either. I vote to benefit the people who would suffer under one choice more than the other: people of color, women, the LGBTQ community, immigrants, etc.
And yes, obviously we need to build an alternative where no one suffers, but that takes time. Personally, I prefer to at least attempt to minimize the suffering of others during that time. Accelerationism is sociopathy.
you’re either unwilling or unable to see that the things that the accelerationists want is the eventual outcome anyways because of the way the system is intentionally structured and history proves that nature will ensure that the commeuppance gets worse the longer we put off making a change.
turning the election into a farce through a lack of cooperating they way they want you to is the easiest & laziest way for an american to help induce such a change, but it will not work if too many people are unable/unwilling to see past the parliamentary mind games that makes you think that you’re helping the people they’re holding ransom for your vote.
as a neurospicy queer brown immigrant, i implore you to stop.
Too many people are unable to see past the parliamentary mind games. If you can’t persuade a hundred million people, that strategy is pointless and ineffective. You can’t persuade a hundred million people, so this strategy is pointless and ineffective.
Agamoronymous
it’s pointless for me to try because i can’t, but mother nature can and she will.
The people being Palestinians, got it.
No, they’re suffering either way. My heart, and some of my money, goes out to them. But their suffering is not dependent on my vote. If it was, I would vote that way. But it isn’t.
Yikes.
yeah you don’t care about genocide. They are suffering because of people like you.
Fucking disgusting person
Ah yes, I have you tagged. You only care about the suffering when you can use it as a political cudgel. I remember you told me immigrant children suffering in America was justified because they have the privilege of living in the imperial core, and then justified it saying they would suffer either way.
Your opinion could not possibly hold less value, especially on the topic of the suffering of others. Your performative outrage is disgusting, at least I actually send aid to Palestine.
I said it was not the responsibility for the people outside the imperial core to take care of your children. You would rather other children suffer to have yours not, instead of fixing the system that originates from your fucking country
Removed by mod
I did, it’s not my fault you’re a reactionary who refuses to read.
Your statements :
Which is to vote for genocide because after all
you have already written them off and you want your treats, even if it means genocide. You don’t deserve shit.
You should be in a gulag, not enjoying brunch by justifying genocide. You fucking monster.
Absolute spineless follower shit, you would 100% have done nothing to oppose slavery
Like most people in all of history we wouldn’t have opposed the normalized oppression of other people, yes this is a fact.
But you are saying people during slavery were wrong for voting in favor of less slavery because it didn’t start with full human rights for slaves so they shouldn’t have voted at all.
People aren’t spineless for believing in a different strategy and even if they where, you are not selling your point of view very well. The sucess of your strategy would mean conving enough people not to vote and just name calling is not doing much.
There is the obvious Problem of all democracies and especially the US System but i don’t really see how more power to republicans will ever come close solving this.
I am very open to all kinds of strategies but i have yet to see any kind of data that suggests even more fascism will lead to a better outcome.
Tell me more about the slaves who voted for less slavery.
I wouldn’t have done stupid counterproductive shit that just made things worse without any benefit.
I think the “follower shit” comment betrays your bitterness at not actually having any followers. You’re never going to get your revolution if 99.999% of the population is too “spineless” to caucus with. If you can’t find common ground with other leftists who are already sold on communism because they disagree with your strategy, how in the absolute fuck are you expecting to persuade the liberal working class?
Like voting for democrats
Pushing “don’t even bother trying” is just supporting the fascists.
Both parties are fascist
If you hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”, then you really may as well not bother trying, bcs nothing you were trying was ever going to help, and most of it will just strengthen the fascists.
Please point to the part of the meme / title that encouraged voting for anyone let alone anything else. This is just disenpowerment and pushes the narrative that it’s hopeless to try anything at all under the guise of “liberals bad” (which I don’t necessarily disagree with, but this is training people to give up entirely)
Learn to read
So you really did hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”.
You, specifically, should absolutely give up and don’t bother trying.
The system is “self-legitimazing” regardless of how many people choose not to vote. Consider the current president didn’t even get the majority of votes.
Instead of buying into the liberal myth that voting creates legitimacy, look at voting as choosing which boss you are going to fight.
The owner has set up this system where he says you get to choose the boss. Even if you do, at best you get to choose who interprets the owners orders. Spending all your time fighting for one boss or the other or against specifically the boss is the wrong thing to do. The correct thing to do is to fight to get rid of the owner and this system, to create a new system that is truly democratic, that will listen to the workers.
That is certainly not what I am advocating for when I say go vote for who you want to fight against.
Voting does not prevent you from building dual power.
And that has material consequences. To ignore that is to limit who you are able to work with.
“Vote for who you want to fight against!”
Say the people who have exactly zero interest in fighting against the Democrats. So are you going to be voting for the Republicans? Or are you giving us advice you would never take yourself
Nah, I’m voting for the working family party or peace and freedom when that is an option. Where i live the national always goes dem so there is no chance of spoiling the vote.
Except in Amerika you’re not voting for who you’re fighting against you’re simply voting for which mask the actual people in power put forth (the good pr nice mask (democrats), the tough and mean mask (republican)). The real boss is not the American president, or Congress, etc but the capitalists behind them who you very specifically get no vote on and to who your vote by design has no tangible material effect on.
That may be true for you, but it is not true for others. Any revolution predicated on ignoring the material reality of the masses is doomed to fail.
Being not Amerikan it is true for me in a way but not in the way you’re implying. You genuinely believe your vote at the Amerikan ballot box has tangible material effects on capitalists interests? That’s a pretty extreme stance that even most liberals would retreat from if pressed.
This is a nonsequitor that doesn’t address anything I said.
It’s only a non-sequitor if you replace what I said about the interests of the masses with the interests of the capitalist class.
I get that it is difficult to both participate in the system while also dismantling it - that is by design. It is also designed to alienate those who participate from those who do not. That is one of the ways the system defends itself.
No it remains a nonsequitor as pointing out voting in America is a charade over choosing which mask capital wears as opposed to having any material effect on who is in power (the boss which needs fighting) has nothing to do with being detached from the needs of the masses.
So you’re saying if we vote for party1, all party2 members will magically disappear and we don’t have to fight them anymore?
Am I to take your question in good faith? Because I really don’t understand how you made this leap from what I said.
You said “Vote for who you want to fight against”, which may make sense in a videogame, but not irl, so I pointed out the contradiction.
I see. I should have said “vote for where you want to fight; in a concentration camp or in the streets”. I meant it reflects the quality of the fight, not that the fight goes away.
You can’t vote for where you want to fight.
So your all proposing we purge every other year. Thats your best idea
“Hey we need to build proletarian organizations to channel political energy in a non-dead end direction”
You:
Thats not what was said. Anymore strawmen
I will hunt you for sport
Incredible bit to talk about “strawmanning” when you wrote this
Give your nose a honk and tell me what you hear
It’s a lot closer to what you said than this:
is to what anyone said.