It’s interesting how the situation flips somewhat for men in adulthood. In most white collar office jobs it is totally unacceptable for anyone to wear shorts, flip flops, and tank tops. However, women are allowed or encouraged to wear skirts, strappy shoes, and sleeveless blouses. In hotter climates, I’ve known a few men that have seriously considered wearing skirts because pants are so uncomfortable, but the social stigma is just too much. Of course, those men still wouldn’t be pressured to wear make-up daily too. I have no idea how men can wear an entire suit, especially a jacket, in subtropical and tropical climates. Thankfully I work in a field that does not pressure women away from wearing pants, but again pants suck in the subtropics. Plus, women’s business casual pants are almost a completely different thing than men’s pants with regards to fitting closely and being made of thin to nearly sheer materials.
I hope this doesn’t feel like sealioning, more that I feel like men need to be shown how the patriarchy is bad for everybody. Blue collar dress codes are at least mostly centered around safety. While it seems white collar dress codes are mostly about “professionalism”, which is mostly just code for gender norms, misogyny, and patriarchy.
I’m a woman and the standards for men really upset me as well. I would 100% support any man who started wearing a kilt to the office as a way to fight the norms.
I read the other comment a woman put here and I get what she’s saying, but I did also think she was minimising how much men are completely discouraged from any sort of self expression in clothing. Although also to be fair, I don’t work in an industry where there’s an expectation for women to look pretty so men can ogle them, so I probably just don’t have the experience to feel as strongly about it.
I guess, we should all fight against the injustices we see, and help each other against the ones we can’t see.
I’ve been in Japan a couple weeks and the number of men wearing full-ass suits in 29 degree weather is insane. I’m sweating in shorts and a breathable athletic shirt.
Yeah, you still cannot compare “I’m a bit hot in these pants” to “you need to be eye candy and pretend you aren’t bothered by men oogling at you while you’re forced to treat them nicely” or “fuck your spine and feet bone structure so you look nice for men” though. (Those high heels not only mess up your feet, they also mess up your spine)
I took the “I’m a bit hot in 35C degree weather and the school keeps taking me out of classes to tell me I’m ruining my future” as a 10 year old kid over using a skirt every day. I believe grown men can deal with wearing pants that they can still choose the cloth of.
But yes, patriarchy definitely affects men too, neither of us have any need to be dealing with this nonsense. Feminism is not just for women’s rights.
Empathy begins with relating to others experiences by comparison. I did not intend to minimize or be dismissive of your experience in the way your reply to me was. They are two sides of an unfairly balanced coin. Most men are never going to be able to really empathize with high heels and make-up, but they can understand being stuffed into uncomfortable and impractical clothes. We should be able to commiserate and relate without being dismissive and hostile.
I didn’t intend to come across dismissive or hostile, and I agree with you on the rest of what you’re saying. If it was my language that’s just how I express myself, truly, as I have strong feelings about this, it is something that has been beaten into me since the moment I started to have opinions about how I dress myself because me choosing the options that men have is too much to ask of society.
Also, regardless of what your intentions were that comparison felt a bit out of touch.
I think a much better example on how patriarchy affects men negatively is the social isolation and the “men don’t cry”. But saying that being forced into pants because it’s hot when I’m talking about being forced into being eye candy since we’re little girls and literally screwing up our bone structures is not a fair comparison and totally missing the point. As if I said that a slap on the face hurts as much as being kicked in the balls.
It’s interesting how the situation flips somewhat for men in adulthood. In most white collar office jobs it is totally unacceptable for anyone to wear shorts, flip flops, and tank tops. However, women are allowed or encouraged to wear skirts, strappy shoes, and sleeveless blouses. In hotter climates, I’ve known a few men that have seriously considered wearing skirts because pants are so uncomfortable, but the social stigma is just too much. Of course, those men still wouldn’t be pressured to wear make-up daily too. I have no idea how men can wear an entire suit, especially a jacket, in subtropical and tropical climates. Thankfully I work in a field that does not pressure women away from wearing pants, but again pants suck in the subtropics. Plus, women’s business casual pants are almost a completely different thing than men’s pants with regards to fitting closely and being made of thin to nearly sheer materials.
I hope this doesn’t feel like sealioning, more that I feel like men need to be shown how the patriarchy is bad for everybody. Blue collar dress codes are at least mostly centered around safety. While it seems white collar dress codes are mostly about “professionalism”, which is mostly just code for gender norms, misogyny, and patriarchy.
I’m a woman and the standards for men really upset me as well. I would 100% support any man who started wearing a kilt to the office as a way to fight the norms.
I read the other comment a woman put here and I get what she’s saying, but I did also think she was minimising how much men are completely discouraged from any sort of self expression in clothing. Although also to be fair, I don’t work in an industry where there’s an expectation for women to look pretty so men can ogle them, so I probably just don’t have the experience to feel as strongly about it.
I guess, we should all fight against the injustices we see, and help each other against the ones we can’t see.
I’ve been in Japan a couple weeks and the number of men wearing full-ass suits in 29 degree weather is insane. I’m sweating in shorts and a breathable athletic shirt.
Yeah, you still cannot compare “I’m a bit hot in these pants” to “you need to be eye candy and pretend you aren’t bothered by men oogling at you while you’re forced to treat them nicely” or “fuck your spine and feet bone structure so you look nice for men” though. (Those high heels not only mess up your feet, they also mess up your spine) I took the “I’m a bit hot in 35C degree weather and the school keeps taking me out of classes to tell me I’m ruining my future” as a 10 year old kid over using a skirt every day. I believe grown men can deal with wearing pants that they can still choose the cloth of.
But yes, patriarchy definitely affects men too, neither of us have any need to be dealing with this nonsense. Feminism is not just for women’s rights.
Empathy begins with relating to others experiences by comparison. I did not intend to minimize or be dismissive of your experience in the way your reply to me was. They are two sides of an unfairly balanced coin. Most men are never going to be able to really empathize with high heels and make-up, but they can understand being stuffed into uncomfortable and impractical clothes. We should be able to commiserate and relate without being dismissive and hostile.
I didn’t intend to come across dismissive or hostile, and I agree with you on the rest of what you’re saying. If it was my language that’s just how I express myself, truly, as I have strong feelings about this, it is something that has been beaten into me since the moment I started to have opinions about how I dress myself because me choosing the options that men have is too much to ask of society. Also, regardless of what your intentions were that comparison felt a bit out of touch. I think a much better example on how patriarchy affects men negatively is the social isolation and the “men don’t cry”. But saying that being forced into pants because it’s hot when I’m talking about being forced into being eye candy since we’re little girls and literally screwing up our bone structures is not a fair comparison and totally missing the point. As if I said that a slap on the face hurts as much as being kicked in the balls.