i don’t believe anybody in the debate thinks it’s actually about economics. the argument follows from clashing ideologies, namely “everyone is valid” vs “other people bad”, and since you can’t really back that up with data, you find objective stuff that agrees with you. then the other site counters. it’s like chess; you move the pieces instead of just punching your opponent in the face because there are rules of engagement.
of course, if your opponent starts randomly changing which pieces are where or how they move, then call you irrational for pointing it out, i feel like it would be fair to pivot to chess boxing.
The rightoids use economic arguments to support their racism and lefties respond by proving the economic argument wrong instead of just calling them racists, as they are, because that didn’t work previously. The real problem here is that nothing is going to work. They didn’t arrive at their position through reasoning. You will not talk them out of their position by being reasonable. Simply do not engage.
it’s dangerous to not engage when they keep winning seats though. yes you can’t logic someone out of an idea they didn’t logic themselves into, but you have to show that it is not tolerated. not engaging at all in protest looks exactly the same as not engaging because they said what you were going to.
You misunderstand; I do not mean to stand by and idly let them do whatever they want- I am saying to not engage them in debate. Do not talk to them. Do not give them validation through attention and platforming.
You can’t just not engage because then they achieve their goals.
You can’t reason them out of their nonsense. You can make them see you as in-group, so the mechanisms that got them where they are work in your favor. Or you can really traumatize them, so they retreat.
Do you somehow think that Boomers have no place in the anarchist movement? Because ageism is a hierarchy that itself needs to be smashed. I don’t give a fuck what your age is; if you’re an anarchist, you’re an anarchist, whenever you were born, whatever conditions you were born into. E.g., David Graeber was a Boomer.
And also, I’m a Zillenial. You don’t necessarily need to use my generation’s slang for me to understand something. Also…not every young person writes like you want us to write! If anything, I have been “uncool”, i.e. uninterested in trends and fitting in with my cohort, for my entire life. I’ve been writing bricks of text like this one basically since I learned to write. I get it if you personally aren’t receptive to ideas in this format, no hard feelings, but that doesn’t it mean it has no utility to anarchist agitprop.
Do you somehow think that Boomers have no place in the anarchist movement?
I am extremely certain our gerontocracies are perpetuate by their oppression, yes. Do you think boomers are aligning themselves with our struggles?
David Graeber was a Boomer.
And he doesn’t 1) identify with his age group 2) or their policies.
If anything, I have been “uncool”, i.e. uninterested in trends and fitting in with my cohort, for my entire life.
Then you miscomprehended the point of demographics. You have to solidify yourself with the zeitgeist, or stay “uncool” forever. Agitprop is supposed to agitate the capable, the normies, the generation leading insurgency.
I am extremely certain our gerontocracies are perpetuate by their oppression, yes.
The gerontocracy is a reflection of the fact that the bourgeoisie acts in the interest of its own preservation. In my view, Boomers as a demographic are not responsible for this because most Boomers are proletarians like you and I, and therefore are unable to influence the system, even if they individually supported gerontocracy.
Also… gerontocracy really is a critique of the silent generation, not Boomers, since the oldest politicians are older than Boomers.
And he doesn’t 1) identify with his age group 2) or their policies.
Generational politics is liberal horseshit. It’s distorting your judgement, as all liberal politics are designed to do. Generational analysis is only ever useful as a heuristic, and even then it is closer to a horoscope than a description of reality.
Agitprop is supposed to agitate the capable, the normies, the generation leading insurgency.
I hate to break it to you, but…young people are just as capable of expressing fascist beliefs as Boomers. E.g., how many normie Zoomers went to the polls after zero opposition to ICE and encroaching fascism, just to vote Democrat, one of the parties that did the Gaza genocide, after it hurt their individual wallets! If you look at the problem generationally, no generation is ripe for anarchism except perhaps the literal kids born during and after the pandemic, because they have not yet been corrupted by capitalism. We have to meet people where they’re at. And in particular, it means that agitprop needs to target subsets of every generation, e.g. working class individuals who are suspicious of the lies told to them by liberals, who need a “nudge” in the right direction.
And also… something doesn’t sit right about focusing on “the capable”. Because I also want to agitate the implied “incapable”, i.e. those with low self-efficacy. Frankly, I work with a lot of students with low self-efficacy, and I want to see them join our movements as well, as a corollary of my more general desire to increase their self-efficacy. I.e., I am not willing to give up on people who ”aren’t capable". Anarchism is for everyone!
Are you leading an insurgency?
Actually no, because I’m not a vanguardist, I’m an anarchist. I want the masses to lead our own insurgency. I am not interested in leading anything, beyond temporarily “stepping up to the plate” if needed. I absolutely do support individual direct action as we need a diversity of tactics to achieve our goals, but ideologically I am much closer to mass-movement anarchism.
The gerontocracy is a reflection of the fact that the bourgeoisie acts in the interest of its own preservation.
And what are the silent&boomers doing to be selfless and martyr?
In my view, Boomers as a demographic are not responsible for this because most Boomers are proletarians like you and I, and therefore are unable to influence the system, even if they individually supported gerontocracy.
Contrary to your demoview, boomers are the major recipient of welfare, and vote to keep the geron in place. So no, they’rent proles, or anarchists. Logically, why would welfare queens work to liberate their children & grandchildren?
kids born during and after the pandemic,
Then let’s zeitgeist these memes for them.
We have to meet people where they’re at.
§1)
2) Where do you think anarchists are?
agitprop needs to target subsets of every generation
CC already made the meme for millennials+. I made it for the tiktok generation.
working class individuals who are suspicious of the lies told to them by liberals, who need a “nudge” in the right direction.
§1. Boomers≢proles. They perpetuate liberal lies, aware who they betray. You never exhibited once a reformed boomer prole “nudged in the right direction.” David Graeber is a prole that 1) disassociates from his peers 2) and their praxis. Gen α are incapable of working, and should be agitated to rebel.
I want the masses to lead our own insurgency.
You won’t find it in treasonous boomers+dying silent. Millennials maybe. But I target the generation that needs to insurgent completely.
Logically, why would welfare queens work to liberate their children & grandchildren?
Wtf anarchists are not against people receiving fucking welfare. “Welfare queen” is a conservative dog whistle!
§1. Boomers≢proles. They perpetuate liberal lies, aware who they betray.
Bizarro-world perspective, sorry. People from every generation perpetuate liberal lies because liberalism is the monoculture in the West. Instead of simply dismissing Boomers from proletarian struggle, we should at least be open to the possibility of change.
You never exhibited once a reformed boomer prole “nudged in the right direction.” David Graeber is a prole that 1) disassociates from his peers 2) and their praxis.
Of course Graeber was (not is, sadly, RIP) a reformed Boomer prole! In the West, we are all indoctrinated, from cradle to grave, into the liberal monoculture. He, and the thousands of other forgotten anarchists he worked with, were examples of reformed Boomer proles. And there are certainly some of them left in the anarchist movement.
Gen α are incapable of working
… because they’re literally children right now…
and should be agitated to rebel.
As should every generation.
And what are the silent&boomers doing to be selfless and martyr?
Some Boomers and a smaller number of Silent Generation people are doing what they can. But I really don’t expect much of Silent Generation because, yeah, they’re super old and not in fighting condition. That doesn’t mean there aren’t Silent Generation activists who spent a lifetime fighting on our behalf, who have now rightly retired to live out the rest of their lives in peace.
GL w/Bluewave MAGA!
Yes, as I have taken hundreds of downvotes to argue against, Blue MAGA is an impediment to the anarchist movement, and to social struggle more broadly. Your solution of…I guess ignoring people who don’t fit your mold for what the proletariat should look like?..does not avoid the Blue MAGA problem. Young people are just as susceptible to liberalism as every other generation.
i’m not really interested in watching a debate on american immigration politics as they are deeply infected and fucked-up from all sides. it won’t give me anything but higher blood pressure.
but CC’s meme is very very much modern lib arguments i18nly
wut
It’s literally not tho
Like CC’s meme is deliberately arguing that the liberal perspective, that ‘immigration is acceptable because it makes money’, is wrong and closer in spirit to the fascists and bourgeois conservatives they loudly claim to hate.
This is not a lib argument. It’s a leftist argument. It’s part of the “leftist memes” cultural meme, i.e. presenting longer tracts of analysis in a meme format. It deliberately the subverts the “image macro” format. The length is supposed to be part of the joke.
Again, I actually quite like your version, since it concretely states your beliefs and curtly argues why. Love it! Both versions are good pieces of agitprop for different audiences, both of whom I want to bring into our movement.
i don’t believe anybody in the debate thinks it’s actually about economics. the argument follows from clashing ideologies, namely “everyone is valid” vs “other people bad”, and since you can’t really back that up with data, you find objective stuff that agrees with you. then the other site counters. it’s like chess; you move the pieces instead of just punching your opponent in the face because there are rules of engagement.
of course, if your opponent starts randomly changing which pieces are where or how they move, then call you irrational for pointing it out, i feel like it would be fair to pivot to chess boxing.
The rightoids use economic arguments to support their racism and lefties respond by proving the economic argument wrong instead of just calling them racists, as they are, because that didn’t work previously. The real problem here is that nothing is going to work. They didn’t arrive at their position through reasoning. You will not talk them out of their position by being reasonable. Simply do not engage.
I like the quote. You can’t reason someone out of a position that they did not arrive at through reason.
it’s dangerous to not engage when they keep winning seats though. yes you can’t logic someone out of an idea they didn’t logic themselves into, but you have to show that it is not tolerated. not engaging at all in protest looks exactly the same as not engaging because they said what you were going to.
You misunderstand; I do not mean to stand by and idly let them do whatever they want- I am saying to not engage them in debate. Do not talk to them. Do not give them validation through attention and platforming.
and if they’re leading the country?
yeah see that’s giving them attention though
once.
You can’t just not engage because then they achieve their goals.
You can’t reason them out of their nonsense. You can make them see you as in-group, so the mechanisms that got them where they are work in your favor. Or you can really traumatize them, so they retreat.
s/lefties/libs/
Except nobody needs to be the “opponent”. That’s the basic truth that the majority of humanity is actively unwilling to recognize.
as long as there are people willing to compromise on human rights, i’d say there still is one.
boomer nocap debate.
iiiii don’t know what that means.
tis y I said these memes are targeting the wrong generation. get with the times. the 80s was 4 millennia ago.
boomerlated
old ass fool, you don’t debate whatsoever [modern link to pro vs anti immigration debate]
Do you somehow think that Boomers have no place in the anarchist movement? Because ageism is a hierarchy that itself needs to be smashed. I don’t give a fuck what your age is; if you’re an anarchist, you’re an anarchist, whenever you were born, whatever conditions you were born into. E.g., David Graeber was a Boomer.
And also, I’m a Zillenial. You don’t necessarily need to use my generation’s slang for me to understand something. Also…not every young person writes like you want us to write! If anything, I have been “uncool”, i.e. uninterested in trends and fitting in with my cohort, for my entire life. I’ve been writing bricks of text like this one basically since I learned to write. I get it if you personally aren’t receptive to ideas in this format, no hard feelings, but that doesn’t it mean it has no utility to anarchist agitprop.
I am extremely certain our gerontocracies are perpetuate by their oppression, yes. Do you think boomers are aligning themselves with our struggles?
And he doesn’t 1) identify with his age group 2) or their policies.
Then you miscomprehended the point of demographics. You have to solidify yourself with the zeitgeist, or stay “uncool” forever. Agitprop is supposed to agitate the capable, the normies, the generation leading insurgency.
Are you leading an insurgency?
The gerontocracy is a reflection of the fact that the bourgeoisie acts in the interest of its own preservation. In my view, Boomers as a demographic are not responsible for this because most Boomers are proletarians like you and I, and therefore are unable to influence the system, even if they individually supported gerontocracy.
Also… gerontocracy really is a critique of the silent generation, not Boomers, since the oldest
politicians are older than Boomers.
Generational politics is liberal horseshit. It’s distorting your judgement, as all liberal politics are designed to do. Generational analysis is only ever useful as a heuristic, and even then it is closer to a horoscope than a description of reality.
I hate to break it to you, but…young people are just as capable of expressing fascist beliefs as Boomers. E.g., how many normie
Zoomers went to the polls after zero opposition to ICE and encroaching fascism, just to vote Democrat, one of the parties that did the Gaza genocide, after it hurt their individual wallets! If you look at the problem generationally, no generation is ripe for anarchism except perhaps the literal kids born during and after the pandemic, because they have not yet been corrupted by capitalism. We have to meet people where they’re at. And in particular, it means that agitprop needs to target subsets of every generation, e.g. working class individuals who are suspicious of the lies told to them by liberals, who need a “nudge” in the right direction.
And also… something doesn’t sit right about focusing on “the capable”. Because I also want to agitate the implied “incapable”, i.e. those with low self-efficacy. Frankly, I work with a lot of students with low self-efficacy, and I want to see them join our movements as well, as a corollary of my more general desire to increase their self-efficacy. I.e., I am not willing to give up on people who ”aren’t capable". Anarchism is for everyone!
Actually no, because I’m not a vanguardist, I’m an anarchist. I want the masses to lead our own insurgency. I am not interested in leading anything, beyond temporarily “stepping up to the plate” if needed. I absolutely do support individual direct action as we need a diversity of tactics to achieve our goals, but ideologically I am much closer to mass-movement anarchism.
And what are the silent&boomers doing to be selfless and martyr?
Contrary to your demoview, boomers are the major recipient of welfare, and vote to keep the geron in place. So no, they’rent proles, or anarchists. Logically, why would welfare queens work to liberate their children & grandchildren?
Then let’s zeitgeist these memes for them.
§1)
2) Where do you think anarchists are?
CC already made the meme for millennials+. I made it for the tiktok generation.
§1. Boomers≢proles. They perpetuate liberal lies, aware who they betray. You never exhibited once a reformed boomer prole “nudged in the right direction.” David Graeber is a prole that 1) disassociates from his peers 2) and their praxis. Gen α are incapable of working, and should be agitated to rebel.
You won’t find it in treasonous boomers+dying silent. Millennials maybe. But I target the generation that needs to insurgent completely.
GL w/Bluewave MAGA!
Wtf anarchists are not against people receiving fucking welfare. “Welfare queen” is a conservative dog whistle!
Bizarro-world perspective, sorry. People from every generation perpetuate liberal lies because liberalism is the monoculture in the West. Instead of simply dismissing Boomers from proletarian struggle, we should at least be open to the possibility of change.
Of course Graeber was (not is, sadly, RIP) a reformed Boomer prole! In the West, we are all indoctrinated, from cradle to grave, into the liberal monoculture. He, and the thousands of other forgotten anarchists he worked with, were examples of reformed Boomer proles. And there are certainly some of them left in the anarchist movement.
… because they’re literally children right now…
As should every generation.
Some Boomers and a smaller number of Silent Generation people are doing what they can. But I really don’t expect much of Silent Generation because, yeah, they’re super old and not in fighting condition. That doesn’t mean there aren’t Silent Generation activists who spent a lifetime fighting on our behalf, who have now rightly retired to live out the rest of their lives in peace.
Yes, as I have taken hundreds of downvotes to argue against, Blue MAGA is an impediment to the anarchist movement, and to social struggle more broadly. Your solution of…I guess ignoring people who don’t fit your mold for what the proletariat should look like?..does not avoid the Blue MAGA problem. Young people are just as susceptible to liberalism as every other generation.
i’m not really interested in watching a debate on american immigration politics as they are deeply infected and fucked-up from all sides. it won’t give me anything but higher blood pressure.
fine. but CC’s meme is very very much modern lib arguments i18nly.
still is, as ameDemocrats are still arguing 4 ICE.
wut
It’s literally not tho
Like CC’s meme is deliberately arguing that the liberal perspective, that ‘immigration is acceptable because it makes money’, is wrong and closer in spirit to the fascists and bourgeois conservatives they loudly claim to hate.
This is not a lib argument. It’s a leftist argument. It’s part of the “leftist memes” cultural meme, i.e. presenting longer tracts of analysis in a meme format. It deliberately the subverts the “image macro” format. The length is supposed to be part of the joke.
Again, I actually quite like your version, since it concretely states your beliefs and curtly argues why. Love it! Both versions are good pieces of agitprop for different audiences, both of whom I want to bring into our movement.
Did you watch the Jubilee video?
No because Jubilee is liberal capitalist horseshit