Hi! Thanks for reading.
I’m sure all of us Linux users revel in the countless articles coming out about the enshittification of Windows, reporting on how Microslop is utilizing more and more vibe coding, transforming PCs into rental clients, and more.
While I’m happy to call myself a Kubuntu-ist, many of my family members still daily drive Windows 11 on their PCs. I can only imagine how their UX is declining day over day.
This makes me want them to witness the freedom of Linux!
So, what are your easiest ways to set up dual boot between W11 and your favorite distro?
Seems like a GUI would be best for non-tech savvy people. Something like rEFInd or Clover (I come from the Steam Deck dual boot world, and am somewhat familiar with this one).
Are there any risks with changing the default Windows Boot Manager? I’ve heard that Windows updates can mess things up, but that if you install Windows first, that can save some headache down the road.
Bonus if you have a favorite distro for non-tech savvy people that needs minimal configuration!
Rather than doing what you are asking about, why not swap them over to the 21h2 ltsc iot version of windows 10 that will receive updates till 2032?
Doing that will improve their lives by rolling the computer back to what they expect and are familiar with, avoid the problems 11 is having and still keep them up to date.
It’s probably best to do something like that instead of evangelizing linux to people who only want the computer to function in expected ways as opposed to learning a bunch of new stuff.
Honestly another great idea! I did this with my Steam Deck :)
Don’t mess with other people’s computers and switch their operating systems around unless they actually want you to
Just mind your own business very few people care about “the freedom of linux”
switch their operating systems around
I’m not switching their OSes around. I want to give them the option to try a different OS out if they find a reason to during their normal use.
Dual boot means they can keep booting into W11 forever if they want. The point about dual boot isn’t to get in the way of that, but to give choice. That’s all I want to accomplish because there’s no guarantee that Windows will get better for the average user. imo, the trend is to make things worse.
very few people care
They will care when the next Windows update bricks their laptop, and they wish they could do anything else to get their $1000+ device back. Or their OneDrive fucks up and they lose their data.
No they won’t you’re just projecting and should leave them alone
You’re clearly desperate to proselytize the greatness of Linux when you should instead just enjoy it yourself and if they want to switch they’ll ask you in the future
No they won’t
It’s quite funny how you know what’s best for my family. Kindly, fuck off with that.
You’re clearly desperate
If I was desperate, I’d go ahead and switch their PCs to Linux without consulting the top Lemmy instance about how to make the transition seamless and easy. Real 5Head move
if they want to switch
This is assuming normies like my family even know that there are alternatives other than MacOS.
I want to get ahead of that curve, and show them options.
This comment is antithetical to my entire post.
Yeah because your conduct is likely to make them and others think poorly of Linux when it’s eagerly foisted upon them by a plucky nerd
So it’s important to tell people like you to relax and let your family voluntarily come to you asking for Linux instead of enthusiastically try to convert them
eagerly foisted upon
What about giving them options is “foisted upon” to you?
Managing windows in a VM with a Linux host on bare metal is long term much more manageable and headache free than dual booting. It’s also a lot easier for Linux to host files to be shared between Linux and Windows than it is to manage a filesystem on bare metal that each alternates access to and to which they can both read and write. Easy sharing of files between systems is going to make the transition a lot less painful. That’s just a lot easier with Linux hosting a VM of windows in my experience. Makes backing up data easier too.
There is plenty of documentation for various options. I have mostly use a mix of samba and NFS to share between various Windows, Linux, Android, and iOS devices for decades. It’s scales well from a single device hosting multiple VMs, to dual booting and accesing shared files on an independent server, to ahomelab with a mix of devices and operating systems, accessing levels, and automatic backups.
Managing windows in a VM
I’ll have to look into virtualizing Windows in Linux. I admit I haven’t had to do this much because Kubuntu does what I need it to lol. I’ve done the opposite in W10 where I ran a CLI VM version of Ubuntu.
Probably a good cheap first step though you’re right!
Do you know of any guides for that?
bare metal is long term much more manageable
Seems like that’s the best solution if the goal is to achieve successful migration rather than adding more bugs. I want the opposite.
Thing is: getting 3-4 new laptops for my immediate family can be costly, and the market isn’t making that any easier. Doesn’t mean used PCs are out of the question. I wonder how those are faring in the current climate.
Unless they have specific applications that require windows 11 to run, I’d recommend just putting them on Linux mint and putting the browser shortcuts and mail and whatever else on the taskbar so they don’t have to go “searching” for anything.
As for Dual booting, it causes issues on the same drive in my experience, I do not recommend this approach.
If you have 2 drives, that becomes more manageable but again, at that point, what’s the benefit? Especially if you plan/want them to boot into Linux by default so they grow acclimated to it.
Linux mint
Thanks for the rec!
causes issues on the same drive in my experience
How so? I’m dual booting SteamOS + W10 on my Steam Deck right now, and the only issue I’m having is Windows changing the boot sequence. Probably could have fixed that if I flashed W10 first then SteamOS, but meh.
Lots of my family already run W11 by default, so I wouldn’t think dual booting would be difficult.
what’s the benefit?
The idea is to give them Linux so they can try it out without committing full time since it’s an entire process to de-Google and de-Microsoft people’s lives. And to jump back to W11 because that’s what they’re used to.
boot into Linux by default
This to me is forcing them to use Linux, which is not what I want to do. I want them to explore it if they want.
There will be instances where a bug in W11 comes up and makes their lives fucking hell for the short time being. If Linux is right there as an alternative and just works, that will be a bigger motivator than me just installing in on their machine because I know what’s best for them.
Just send them to https://distrosea.com/ and they can test all sorts of different Linux distros
What’s the easiest way to do this? Load up a 128 GB thumb drive with Ventoy and all the .ISOs? Could be a good first step before doing dual boot because they’ll know what they want.
The site Techpir8 linked is distrosea, which lets you test Linux distros in a browser window (the Linux distros run on distrosea’s servers). No need for Ventoy.
Bro that’s fire, will definitely consider!
Linux Mint is your best bet. Intuitive for new users without any flashy features to get in the way.
All said, temper your expectations. I did this for a couple of my folks and the Linux partition just sat untouched until I next visited (and presumably thereafter). Despite updates for their existing Windows 10 ending. For an unfortunate majority of people, they don’t really care until their browser stops rendering pages, no matter how you proselytize Linux.
on second thought, don't even dual boot. A separate computer would have fared better. But if you must dual-boot...
No personal experience on how to make the dual-boot graphical, but that’s a very good idea. I’ve witnessed computer science graduates struggle to get their computer to boot from a USB stick.
Separate disk because that eliminates interference with the Windows Boot Manager. More like the other way around since Windows tends to mess with GRUB after certain updates if it’s on the same disk. Nearly every concern with whether to install Windows or Linux first arises from trying to dual-boot on the same disk. And if anything goes wrong, you can just revert by unplugging the Linux disk instead of painstakingly reconstructing a broken Windows install.
If you are passionate enough and have some money to spare, get a used laptop (240 GB SSD, 8GB of RAM, 3rd Gen i5 at a minimum), preferably enterprise-grade (Latitude, ProBook, ThinkPad), clean it up, and pop Linux Mint onto it. Your folks can then experience Linux at their leisure, side-by-side with their existing machine at no risk. No fussing with boot order menus, which I have seen confuse computer science graduates.
Really good pieces of advice. Thanks!
I’ve definitely heard horror stories from people on Lemmy talking about how Windows fucked up their PC, as much as they tried to quarantine it like the pathogen it is.
So just from your comment, here are my ideas from best to worst:
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Gift them new laptops with Linux Mint pre-loaded (as well as their favorite browser, and possibly LibreOffice).
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If they have a desktop, gift them second HDD/SSD with the above.
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If they have a laptop, gift them external SSD with the above.
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Gift them a USB with the above.
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Set up GUI dual boot between W11 and Mint.
I know it’s difficult to have the best of both worlds between Windows and Linux. I’m stubborn though, and don’t want them to suffer under Microslop so long as the company keeps its current trajectory.
We as Linux advocates need to find ways to make it easier for others to onboard. Not seeing a lot of that sentiment in the comments (excluding you ofc).
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I can only imagine how their UX is declining day over day.
They are probably just fine. Most people are perfectly happy with Windows, we are a minority.
That said, don’t dual boot for noobs. It’s a pointless exercise in additional complexity. If you default it to Windows, they’ll never leave Windows. If you default it to Linux, they’ll be forever frustrated that it booted to the wrong OS.
Install Linux on a new disk, insert it on their box, and if they hate it and ask for Windows back, give it back. Forcing them into Linux land will just make them resent it.
are probably just fine
ARE fine, for now. Windows is turning to shit though, and I’d like to be that resource for when they want to make the switch. Even easier if I can introduce Linux now, at least for a trial, so I can plant the seed.
Could probably boot from USB first honestly to see what distro they prefer, now that I’m thinking about it
You making this comment is pretty much antithetical to my post.
pointless exercise
Why in your opinion? Is dual boot futile? Have improvements not been made over the years?
booted to the wrong OS
That’s my goal here. Finding a good dual boot method from the Linux community that will minimize issues like this.
People want to turn on their computer and have the OS boot and get out of the way. Adding a bootloader in between is just annoying. You either default it to autoboot X, and then find it frustrating that you need Y, or you set it to always pester you to choose, which is annoying in of itself. The UX experience really hasn’t improved ever and kinda can’t.
I’ve been dual booting since fedora 4, and whether it’s stock GRUB, or one of the flavours of the month GUI boot loaders, it’s the same lowsy experience. I can live with it, but I wouldn’t dare inflict it on a new user.
UEFI has somewhat changed it, as I now just default boot to Linux, but from Linux can run a script to set it to boot to Windows on next boot, and then reboot, but it’s still pretty gross to use.
USB boot is okay, but perhaps use a USB SSD, standard USBs can be very slow which will give a poor user experience. I also don’t think distro is that critical, as long as you stick to the mainstream ones. Make sure it’s one that you know well, as realistically, your gonna end up being called for support.
is just annoying
Is it really that annoying when a launch screen like rEFInd or Clover pops up with graphical logos of Windows or X distro? How is that any different than them picking an account to use over someone else’s? The GUI experience is the same to me.
autoboot X
Is autobooting rEFInd or Clover not possible?
that you need Y
Wouldn’t a restart a booting into rEFInd or Clover fix this? Maybe my understanding of the IT support world is wrong, but I would think that restarting a computer to fix issues isn’t too far from the average user’s troubleshooting skills.
pester you to choose
Seems like this disdain is coming from personal experience. Have you tried dual booting recently? Is it really as annoying as you think? Asking the Linux pros here because I don’t know.
hasn’t improved ever
Have you used GUI boot managers like rEFInd or Clover?
flavours of the month
What other options have you tried? I’m looking for a flavor that’s the easiest and simplest for a noob to use.
run a script
I believe if you install Windows first then Linux after, you won’t have the issue of Windows overwriting your boot sequence. I could be wrong though. My thinking was to set the GUI boot manager as the primary boot, and from there they can pick the OS they want.
Only issue I foresee with this is Windows updates fucking shit up.
very slow
Good to know! Actual first or second good piece of advice to my post that doesn’t involve people telling me to shut the fuck up.
stick to the mainstream ones
It’d probably be Mint, Ubuntu, or Fedora. But yeah good advice! Can you imagine giving a noob Arch haha
called for support.
I’m taking the train to go help my sister set up her OG Chromecast today.
Safe to say I’m used to it :)
I was using X and Y to refer to Windows/Linux.
I do currently dual boot, using UEFI + grub2 (and also macos bootloader+asahi linux), and yes, it definitely is a personal disdain. The various bootloaders themselves don’t really change the experience that much its that you have to choose your OS during the boot process that cause the UX friction.
It may be the same as a user login screen, but it doesn’t take the place of one. So you press the on button -> wait a bit -> choose your OS -> wait a bit more -> choose your user -> wait a bit more. That extra step in there just really gets on your nerves, especially if you just want to turn on the PC and get on with something. If there was a way to set the boot choice before pressing the on button (like a physical toggle switch or something), that would be slightly better, but afaik, that doesn’t exist.
I’m not telling you to shut up, but I would suggest caution, it only takes one bad experience to irreparably damage your families opinion of linux, sometimes its better to let them come to you when their ready. But USB to demo the experience is definitely a good way to go about it. But when they are ready, I’d go all in on the distro of choice and spend some time with them to iron out all the issues. A little hand holding early on will save you a lot of headache later.
