I am learning about community-based Linux distros as they are my preferred choice compared to corporate ones. And when I get to Fedora, what I see from the fence is a sofisticated, well-supported OS.

However, seeing that it is sponsored by the Red Hat corporation, the question arises: could Red Hat eventually take control of the project? I suppose the answer comes down to how much weight Red Hat actually has on the development of said distro. From what I know, it has employees dedicated full-time to it.

Let’s rephrase the question and say that the Fedora project ditched Red Hat from its development due to some irrepairable decision; how viable would the continuation of the OS development be as compared to, for example, Debian, which is also community-based but, as far as I know, has no such backing from a corporation?

Please, note that, while I am indeed a Debian user, I am not trying in any way to shit on Fedora. I myself am curious to try it out as I have recently arrived to Linux.

  • LeFantome@programming.dev
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    8 hours ago

    The Fedora Project was created by Red Hat explicitly to be a community distribution so that they could focus on RHEL (Red Hat Enterprise Linux) as an explicitly commercial dostribution.

    Before Fedora, there was Red Hat Linux (not RHEL). Red Hat Linux was commercial but inexpensive. I remember it being around $50 but that could be wrong.

    Red Hat made installing Linux easy back when it was not. They created the Red Hat Package Manager (RPM). They bundled configuration utilities and a commercial X server back when XFree86 was less great and had far worse hardware support.

    As Red Hat Linux became more successful, there was increased tension between the “free software” community and Red Hat’s commercial ambitions.

    An individual Red Hat user created something call “Fedora Linux” which was a repository of software for Red Hat Linux that Red Hat did not ship (it was not a full distro). Very soon after this, Red Hat announced the creation of the “Fedora Project” as a collaboration with “Fedora Linux” (the original Fedora Linux project was absorbed into the Fedora Project). The Fedora Project shipped a full Linux distribution called “Fedora Core” which was Red Hat Linux with the third-party commercial software removed. On top of the “Core”, the Fedora Project shipped the packages that Fedora Linux had been shipping. After a few releases, Fedora dropped “Core” from the name and we have Fedora Linux again (but as a full distro now).

    Fedora was defined as a purely community distribution with a mandate to ship only Open Source software and to exclude anything commercial. Red Hat provided infrastructure and paid Red Hat employees to staff key positions in the project.

    The original Red Hat Linux was discontinued, leaving Fedora as an explicitly community distro and RHEL as an explicitly commercial one. RHEL was slow moving and conservative. Fedora was faster paced and innovative. Tech that would later appear in RHEL would appear in Fedora first, often funded by Red Hat or built by Red Hat engineers. This was before CentOS even existed and it continues to this day.

    Red Hat has already “taken over” Fedora. They created it. They still largely run it (staff it). But it is critical to their strategy that Fedora be a fully free software “community” distro. That is the whole reason it exists. So the idea that Red Hat will “take Fedora corporate” or “make it closed source” is completely ignorant of the history of the project.

    If Red Hat did not find Fedora useful in its current form, they would simply abandon it. They would stop paying employees to work on it.

    In the years since the creation of Fedora, the CentOS project was founded. CentOS was originally a “clone” of RHEL. It was compiled from the same sources as RHEL. It was “downstream” of RHEL. It was not created by Red Hat. It was a problem for Red Hat as RHEL was meant to be an explicitly commercial offering.

    Red Hat took over the CentOS project. And they completely changed how it worked. They release “CentOS Stream” as an entirely new distribution. It is “upstream” of RHEL. That is, instead of CentOS being created from RHEL (and being essentially identical to it), RHEL is now created from CentOS. This means that CentOS is actually more of a community distro (for example AlmaLinux participates its evolution) but CentOS is no longer bit-for-bit compatible with RHEL.

    I bring up CentOS as I see it as instructive for Fedora. Red Hat wants it to be LESS identical to their corporate offering.

  • FoundFootFootage78@lemmy.ml
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    2 days ago

    Red Hat has a lot of control but it’s open source we don’t need to trust them. In terms of security Fedora is doing better than Debian and Arch, and in my experience RPM-based distros have been the best I’ve used.

    If you’re concerned you can always use OpenSUSE Leap. I would use it if I needed to distrohop for some reason, I’d just need to figure out what to do about RPM fusion.

  • DigitalDilemma@lemmy.ml
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    2 days ago

    Fedora is a community project but ultimately owned by Redhat. They own the trademarks and the domain. They could stop support for it at any time they, or their owners, IBM, decide it’s not in their interests to continue supporting, or even allowing, it. People will say “Sure, but you could fork it” and I don’t doubt that it would be forked, and there’s enough userbase to make that fork successful and arguably better, but then it wouldn’t be Fedora.

    That does seem unlikely since Fedora is a fundamental part of Redhat’s upstream for their main Linux project, RHEL and would require a bit shift in their model, but they have made some odd decisions over the past few years that have upset the community. (Ending Centos Linux 8 with very little warning, and then trying to block source distribution for the rebuilders that stepped in to replace Centos Linux. Centos was a community owned project back along, by the way, founded by Greg Kertzer who was forced to give it up, which indirectly led to Redhat taking control over it and ultimately ending Centos linux entirely. This was its own huge controversy and did not paint Redhat in any kind of warm and fuzzy light)

    So I don’t trust Redhat as much as I did half a decade ago because of these reasons, and more generally because of their corporate sellout. No matter what their supporters and community say, Redhat are a for-profit company that made decisions which upset the community even before it was bought out by a huge multinational with a long history of choosing profit over ethics.

    So stick with Debian if you want to stay clear of corporate linux ownership. I’m afraid that does include the entire EL group - Fedora, RHEL, Centos Stream and even the rebuilders, Alma and Rocky. (Two projects that I really love but are vulnerable to further changes by Redhat)

    • Cekan14@lemmy.orgOP
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      2 days ago

      Yep, that’s exactly what I care about and one of the reasons I ditched Ubuntu. I guess I’ll look into OpenSUSE as a potential alternative if I feel like distro-hopping in the future (although I know even less of its relationship with SUSE).

      • tyrant@lemmy.world
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        2 days ago

        Why don’t you look into projects that aren’t related to a company? Aren’t Ubuntu, fedora, and open suse the 3 that have corporate support? There are plenty of distros out there that are stable on the Debian branch and a lot of interesting projects on the Arch branch as well.

        • FoundFootFootage78@lemmy.ml
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          2 days ago

          The five major upstreams are Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSUSE, Debian, and Arch. Three of those are corporate, two have some questionable security practices.

          So there’s no perfect distro.

            • pheusie@programming.dev
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              9 hours ago

              Not the one you asked, but here’s my two cents.

              Arch, by virtue of its DIY nature, has little to no defaults. As such, common security measures are not pre-configured either. Thankfully, it makes up for that with its excellent wiki entry on security. Unfortunately, I don’t think most users ever seriously implement what’s found within.

              As for Debian, it actually does come with plenty of relatively sane defaults, including security. And Debian has shown to take security rather seriously. However, (most) Debian repositories are not great at providing up-to-date versions of the software they package:

              • The stable branch has outdated packages for the sake of providing a ‘boring’ (but reliable) experience. While security updates are backported, it is not the preferred way of keeping software safe and secure.
              • The testing branch is in a disturbing condition in which it holds software that is a bit more stable than the unstable branch. However, it does not enjoy the security updates backported to the stable branch. Nor does it immediately receive the security updates as they come to the unstable branch. A rather unsettling middle ground, if you will. Definitely not recommended for the security-conscious.
              • Finally, the unstable branch. Intuitively, this should provide the fix for the above problems. It should provide current software, which should mean that it receives updates as they’re released, security included. But, anecdotally, the likes of Arch, Fedora and openSUSE seem to be doing a better job at offering a (semi-)rolling release distro. But, please be my guest, and prove them wrong.
            • FoundFootFootage78@lemmy.ml
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              24 hours ago

              Not really, I’ve mostly just heard about their security problems on the grapevine, I don’t have specific concerns in mind.

              Arch is pretty famous for being lax on security. Debian for having a pretty scrappy organisational structure.

        • Cekan14@lemmy.orgOP
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          2 days ago

          I’m just learning about all this stuff but yeah, I’ll definitely take a look at Arch, although just out of curiosity, since I am overall satisfied with Debian.

      • DigitalDilemma@lemmy.ml
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        2 days ago

        I’ll look into OpenSUSE as a potential alternative

        You could do worse!

        I’ve worked with OpenSuse for a few years and I really like the people involved. They’re stand-out in that they’re European based (no bad thing in today’s uncertain world if you’re not American yourself.) They’re a german organisation but the employees are spread through Europe and further afield and they’re a really, really small concern, but IME, they genuinely care about doing the right thing, even if that comes before financial growth. One example of that is their tutoring programs and, unlike many organisations even in the FOSS world, I get the feeling they genuinely uphold their guiding principles

        I use Debian myself at home and at work and it’s my go-to for everything, but if it didn’t exist, OpenSuse would probably be the next on my list and although I’m not working with them at present, I would happily do so again.

        • Cekan14@lemmy.orgOP
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          2 days ago

          That’s so nice to hear! Thank you so much for sharing. I’ll definitely have OpenSUSE on my list to try sometime and if for some reason I need to switch my system

      • HumbleExaggeration@feddit.org
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        2 days ago

        Funny to read. I recently came to the same conclusion and downloaded openSUSE yesterday. At the moment I am waiting for a time slot to install it.

  • IsoKiero@sopuli.xyz
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    3 days ago

    Wikipedia has a decent history lesson on Fedora. It’s not just sponsored by Red Hat, it practically replaced the open version of RHEL, so it’s pretty tightly tied to the Red Hat company. CentOS was a bit similar case, which is now discontinued and functionally replaced by AlmaLinux.

    Red Hat has already a lot of control over the project, but if they decided to do something stupid with it, something else would take Fedoras place pretty quickly, so I don’t see any ‘corporate threat’ to Fedora nor Linux community in general. That’s the way things have been for a long time and Red Hat has contributed quite a lot to the Linux development over the years which we all can enjoy.

    Fedora might get obsolete in the future, maybe because of changes in Red Hat or maybe for some other reason. New distributions raise and others pan out for multiple reasons. Mandrake (or later Mandriva) was somewhat popular at the time, but it’s now dead. Damn Small Linux had it’s userbase for a while, but it’s also now dead, like a handful of other somewhat decent sized projects.

  • Arthur Besse@lemmy.mlM
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    2 days ago

    could Red Hat eventually take control of the project

    Fedora started in 2002 and merged with “Red Hat Linux” in 2003.

    Red Hat, Inc has had full control of it ever since then.

    It is a “community project” inasmuch as there are Fedora developers who are volunteers (and some who are paid by companies other than Red Hat), and the Fedora Council includes people who are not employed by Red Hat - but the Project Leader is always a Red Hat employee, and if the Council ever has an irreconcilable difference with Red Hat then Red Hat can simply ignore and/or dismiss them.

    Red Hat owns all Fedora-related trademarks, and the Fedora Project is not an independent legal entity: it is a part of Red Hat.

    If Fedora developers don’t like Red Hat’s decisions regarding the project, they can fork it but they’d need to change the name and find some other sources funding.

    Also, icymi, Red Hat became a subsidiary of IBM in 2019.

  • pheusie@programming.dev
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    2 days ago

    There are already many good answers in the comments, so I don’t feel the need to add much to it. But perhaps the following is worth mentioning:

    • Fedora has got enough agency to continue efforts in what has been abandoned by Red Hat. Or, vice versa.
      • For example: it has continued to offer Btrfs as the default file system, while Red Hat has long since deprecated it.
      • Or, conversely, Red Hat has big plans for bootc. And while Fedora has done a decent job with Fedora Atomic, it certainly does not enjoy the resources and commitment it deserves; a pretty bad regression for (at least one of) the Fedora Atomic images was not considered a blocker for one of the more recent major release updates. Heck, it has become so bad that even the likes of both CentOS Stream and GNOME OS have shown to be more receptive when it comes to addressing problems and whatnot.
    • It has been pointed out that Fedora would probably not survive in the event that Red Hat would cease ‘its support’.
  • talkingpumpkin@lemmy.world
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    3 days ago

    could Red Hat eventually take control of the project?

    Yes, and they could eventually take control of debian too.

    Why bother mitigating such far-fetched risks though?

    The mitigation cost is similar to the remediation one (ie. you’ll just have to switch distro either way), and it’s also likely to go down as the risk increases (ie. people will fork off fedora far sooner than the risk of it actually doing whatever bad things you fear Red Hat is gonna do to it becomes a practical concern).

    BTW: are you aware the Linux Foundation is an US entity and funded by (among others) most US IT megacorps? (interestingly, amazon/aws is only a silver member - Bezos must really be a cheapskate)

    • DigitalDilemma@lemmy.ml
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      2 days ago

      BTW: are you aware the Linux Foundation is an US entity and funded by (among others) most US IT megacorps?

      The Linux Foundation is not Linux. It is a nonprofit organisation that supports linux and encourages open standards.

      It does not own nor control Linux; no single entity does.

  • Admetus@sopuli.xyz
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    3 days ago

    I get the impression it’s a very balanced relationship: Fedora develops, Redhat devs perfect, then it gets thrown back to Fedora. I’m not well read on the subject, but Fedora isn’t hating on their positioning.

  • James R Kirk@startrek.website
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    2 days ago

    The highly abridged version is that Red Hat pays for and helps with developing Fedora and makes their money from providing support to companies that use it.

    If they stopped supporting Fedora (would kind of kill their business model but let’s pretend) anyone could “fork” it and continue working on their own version just like other distros.