I’m not saying I’m not frequently disappointed in them - but demanding perfection immediately seems to work even less well.

And as for “stopping Iran” i know there’s a bunch of plans that don’t involve random school bombings, which just speaks to the derangement and incompetence of the people who supposedly won the election. We would have had better than that. By a lot. The world would have had better.

In Cuba Literacy, maternal survival, and life expectancy are all better than the USA even after getting collectively punished by the USA for over 6 decades.

Wow that’s something for less than half the population of Florida. Good for them. That communist thing really working out then. Glad to hear it.

They also have a much lower wealth disparity than the US.

I’ll bet! Just barely being edged out in the GDP rankings by Uruguay and slightly ahead of El Salvador. “Wealth in Cuba is concentrated among a small elite, with estimates suggesting that about 1% of the population holds significant wealth, including luxury items and modern amenities. The majority of Cubans face economic challenges, with many living below the poverty line despite the government’s claims of low poverty rates.”

But no, you’re probably right on account of your reasonable approach.

So you bring up a list of topics leftist absolutely wipe the floor of Democrats with.

Oh yeah, totes bro. Leftists have passed so many bills, you guys. Billions of dollars in funding for leftist goals, millions of proletariats supported, as spearheaded by the leftists in office in leftist imaginations. Puts Democrats to shame as far as made up accomplishments go. Hey that’s what a state news agency is for, baby!

Yes, ignore the further proof that voters lack authority to impact change necessary in the world.

As a - whatever flava of leftist you supposedly support, you should know who has authority but I guess they don’t let y’all vote that often then anyway huh.

So you’re okay with signing your name on bombs so long as it’s the practical decision to keep you comfy.

How the fuck did you get there? Jeez you’re like open mic night at the sad lefty club.

Destined to support capitalism? I didn’t support it in 2024 and I don’t support them now.

Ah, living off the land eh? Got your little keyboard made out of mushrooms and an internet connection through the call of the wild do ya. That’s super. Hey while you’re lying to yourself and everyone else why not throw in that you made the world a better place by allowing trump to win. I mean, why not, right?

I don’t even like USAID because they so frequently use it to smuggle guns

I have heard that too and that needs to be stopped wherever it may have been the case. It’s not perfect.

I guess maybe, but I think it’s more likely she just actually was hawkish on Iran.

I think Iran is a bugaboo that candidates have to posture on. They said the same about Hilary. I think saying, in a campaign speech, “I’m tough on Iran” is a world away from actually fucking up the way trump is doing this very minute.

And as for trump and Gaza have you seen this? That he shared and is proud of? Harris would not have had anything to do with that, i think it’s safe to say.

federal land they claimed they wouldn’t drill on that was drilled on.

What land was that?

You should probably look at the civil rights voting records. More democrats in number and ratio were against civil rights legislation than even fuckin republicans.

The fact that you confidently lay that out and obviously don’t know why that is speaks volumes about your political acuity.

Please compare education quality increases in Cuba and China compared with its decline in the US. Economic quality.

Oh here we go. Yes do tell how Cuba and China are beacons for us all.

know that I’m not a republican

Yeah, I didn’t . . . think that at all.

Electors are appointed, not elected.

Correct! Five points.

you are defending white supremacist and imperialist systems.

The fuck i am. I’m saying there’s a practical path to a better world and it’s not that complicated. Individuals stand in the way, but that’s why supporting a larger movement is a good thing.

You don’t want democrats to get better because you are a white supremacist and use Republicans as an excuse to justify your own fucked up desires for your supremacy in this world.

You’re completely delusional and destined to support the very systems you claim to hate so much. Like you did in 2024.

Do you even know what leftist interests are?

well if it’s not environmental health, civil rights, education, and economic equity then they can GTFO. If it is, why are they voting against it?

your interests which are more closely aligned with fascists

Sure, comrade. Whatever you gotta tell yourself.

The electors do that technically, not voters.

Do they? Who authorizes the electors? (Technically it’s the party, isn’t it. Which proves how much good faith you have in this discussion)

Cool, so voters get to choose the face of our abusers

I don’t know what happened to you but that’s a really weird way to put it.

Vibes-based political opinion presented as humor.

I don’t see the vibe, but i’ll allow it.

I’ll still be fighting for something better because I’m not a white supremacist.

No, you’re a reactionary idealist relegated to the role of watching everything turning to shit and wondering why. How will you be “still” “fighting for something better”? Shitting on practical options and accusing random people of being white supremacists? Cool. Looks like it’s working great. Your fighting is top notch. Maybe you can yell at a gas station attendant, y’know, to strike a blow against imperial colonialism.

And yeah cutting off USAID is horrifying. I don’t think the scale is the same as the genocide in palestine

You should probably read this: https://www.cgdev.org/blog/update-lives-lost-usaid-cuts

It says somewhere between 5-10x the amount of lives lost. Obviously there are differences. But sheer number of deaths, the USAID cuts are way worse.

I’m also not convinced Harris wouldn’t have us invading Iran all the same; she was extremely hawkish on Iran. Just go look at what she was saying in 2024.

No. Obama worked hard to get a treaty that trump destroyed immediately. She would try to get back on that track. And, point of order, she’s not a goddamned idiot like our demented rapist, or surrounded by sycophantic nazis.

I also don’t see any reason to think Palestinians would have been better off under Harris. Biden gave way more to Israel than Trump has

I disagree entirely, but it’s a big discussion. The quick points are Biden’s private disagreements with Bibi and attempts to prevent arms sales that the republicans intentionally overrode; and the demented rapist’s carte blanche for Bibi and Pooty-poot. Coagulating into his owning “beautiful beachfront resort property”. It’s just worlds away from competent, adult foreign policy. And I’m sorry that’s not staggeringly clear.

As I said, i don’ think voting for the democrats wouldn’t have helped either, so I’d rather try for the option that has a chance.

I mean, I agree with the option that has a chance part. I just disagree entirely on which had the chance.

Okay. So what’s the plan?

Do nothing? (y/n): _

NATO country

Well the opposite happened so - I mean republicans cut more than funding, they closed up the entire agency, leaving millions of people around the world without food and medicine, and the Democrats would have continued sending food and medicine. That’s scale.

And just to reiterate the genocide didn’t stop, and trump has sold the Palestinians down the river for thirty pieces if silver and a statue of himself plus the naming rights. So how did that even help? There’s no way Harris would have even come close to that. Much less start a War for our buddy Bibi and let Pooty-poot continue his own genocide.

It just makes zero sense to not try and make it better. Letting trump win - even for the ethical reasons stated - is worse.

Leftists are simultaneously numerous enough to cost the democrats the election while also being not numerous enough for the democrats to want to move left to capture that block. The enemy is weak and also strong.

No they’re just morons who demand to vote against their interests.

Do voters actually have authority?

Yes! The votes determine who takes office, see? That’s how that works.

Princeton University said public opinion has “near-zero” impact on U.S. law.

Well i’m suspect of any sociological determination but the simple answer is: opinion is not a vote. We don’t vote on the laws, we vote on the people who vote on the laws. So having an opinion doesn’t do anything to the law. It’s like saying public opinion has “near-zero” effect on the migration of the South African swallow.

Seems like voters have a singular ability to legitimize the authority of those who rule over us.

Wow, you really - um. Yes? Voters do authorize people to hold office (and, by extension, deny others the authority to hold office) but the “ruling over us” part is just a weird way to say it. You see, governments are how societies agree to . . . Okay wait, so when people agree to live in society, they . . Okay let’s talk about the Constitution. You see they left this England place because it was bogus, and they were like, hey - if we don’t get some cool rules, pronto, then we’ll just be bogus too!

When democrats regain power and continue deadly republican policy, will you be too busy celebrating at brunch to care?

When trump is gone I am definitely going to go to brunch. But otherwise (and still) no.

So you’re a single-issue voter?

That’s a thing. And yes, if you don’t recall, the whole god bless the united states is a reaganism that infected all discourse and mutated into brylcreem and flag pins so specifically dropping it from the platform after spectacularly failing to do it as we wanted in 2012 is progress.

No I mean the messenger in “shooting the messenger” is a person with no authority. That’s why shooting them is pointless.

Voters have authority.

You’ve got quite the complete dystopian take on elections, which is all cynical hyperbole and somehow wishful thinking, and must have taken awhile to refine so well done. But, you have the authority to throw your vote away to ensure the realization of that take so - okay.

I’m gonna go over here though where there’s a way to make things better. Because that is possible.

The voters don’t control the platform…they don’t even have a meaningful voice on the platform. No matter how many people show up to the meetings saying “we should not arm genocide,” the platform will not change. You will be asked to leave, and if you don’t leave you’ll be arrested. And if, by the grace of god, you take over a caucus, the DNC can and will simply ignore you.

Well I disagree, obviously, but it doesn’t mean there weren’t things like this: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/convention-floor-erupts-as-dems-restore-references-to-god-jerusalem-in-platform (apologies fir the source, it was the first one in my enshittified search results)

Which was obvious bullshit. But then look at 12 years later and https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/aug/14/democrats-have-officially-abandoned-god/ (apologies again for the source - ugh) and hey lookit that: forward motion.

Does it take too long? Yes. Is it ruled by 300 people who have jockeyed for years to be one of the leaders, yes. Like all human endeavor it is flawed. But it doesn’t exist without the people who make up the party.

We need to get money out of politics, kill the Slaver’s College, re-democratize voting, kill FPTP and a ton of other things. But those things won’t happen through a third party, or the republicans. They can happen through the Democrats if only we’d all agree for one goddamn day. Which is the point of the meme.

I’ll tell you how it’s not on individual voters: individual voters don’t get to decide what the party platform is. The party does. It’s on the party.

And the party is made up of . . . . . c’mon . . . . the party is made up of . . . ??

Of the voters, right. Yes. Voters have a voice in the party platform. It’s not even all that byzantine to do - you show up at the meetings basically. That’s how new (or old) ideas get in.

Now, party politics, yeah that’s a thing in ANY organization whether it’s the DNC, WalMart, or the boys at the bar. So those of you who are big into the “Democrats should do everything I think immediately because i think it” yeah that . . doesn’t work. Working with others doesn’t come naturally to a lot of the Lemmy left I notice. Compromise and letting people have wins and such like that aren’t really accepted, or possibly understood.

By this logic, we shouldn’t blame Ford for the Pinto (dating myself).

So if Ford had a mechanism to let consumers say what they wanted in a car, yes, the consumers would be able to say they don’t want cars to explode on impact. But Ford doesn’t, do they. Ford car buyers don’t have a direct voice. So the analogy fails. Not to mention the whole exploding thing was seriously covered up for years and years as opposed to being published openly and then voted on, which makes it even worse as an analogy.

oh the messenger eh. The person who has no authority whatsoever? That person?

And who might that be?

Damn, Missouri. That sucks. Good luck to you.

Doesn’t stop them from absorbing non-republican votes every year tho.

Ok thanks Che. Good work.

Yep

Well, except that one of them does. Every time.