How do you know? In a typical solar system, you have to have a permit, which requires an inspector to come out and ensure everything is configured correctly and safely. These don’t require any permits, which is great for making them more affordable and accessible, but there’s also no one coming around to make sure that anyone is doing it safely.
I know it because it’s in the spec necessary for licensing. It shuts off in under 20 ms so you can’t even get shocked by the prongs of the plug if pulled out.
It is a commercial product, connected to the grid via a standard schuko plug, sold in Germany. It has to be compliant with the local law to be sold legally.
So you can’t buy raw solar panels or inverters in Germany?
Sure you can. Solar panels will be fried by grid voltage more or less immediately if you connect them directly to a wall socket and become useless.
You cannot buy a PV inverter in Germany (entire EU really) that doesn’t automatically shut off if it doesn’t detect a frequency to sync against from it’s AC side, unless it can run off-grid in which case it has to disble the grid connection within the same 20ms.
You cannot buy a PV inverter in Germany (entire EU really) that doesn’t automatically shut off if it doesn’t detect a frequency to sync against from it’s AC side, unless it can run off-grid in which case it has to disble the grid connection within the same 20ms.
So you can’t buy a grid-connected inverter with off-grid capabilities? Because the inverter has no way to tell the difference between the grid being off, and being off-grid.
Oh you can buy off grid inverters (or inverters capable of “island mode”). But they are required to be able to automatically disconnect from grid, even if they are never going to be connected to a grid. You can’t buy solar inverters without this for the exact reason that you can connect them to grid.
Again, it doesn’t matter what inverter you buy, they can’t tell the difference between off grid and grid off. So if it shuts off when it doesn’t detect voltage, then it won’t work off grid. Which makes it sound like you’re saying off-grid inverters are illegal.
You are required to notify your utilities that you’ll be operating a direct plugged small solar PV installation, that’s it. They can’t forbid you from doing this.
The utilities don’t monitor compliance, the manufacturer is.
The certification on the product shows that it’s safe to use in grid-tie. What the fuck are you on about? Are you just being intentionally an obtuse pain in the ass?
By now over 1.2 million people in Germany have registered (and even more have not registered) their legal small scale solar system and are producing their own electricity (mine covers 2/3rds of my total demand).
UL certification is a requirement for an electric or electronic product to be licensed for sale to consumers in the US. This is enforced on US manufacturers of a product and on importers.
Whilst people buying something from AliExpress for personal use and importing it themselves don’t have to obbey such requirements, those importing them or making them for sale in the US do.
The CE mark does the same thing in the EU.
No idea if in the US there are further licensing requirements for things to be connected to the grid that would close the importing for personal use loophole.
UL certification is a requirement for an electric or electronic product to be licensed for sale to consumers in the US.
That is completely incorrect. I own a ton of equipment that is not UL listed.
Further, UL listed equipment is not prevented from backfeeding to the grid, and in fact most of it is intended for precisely that.
No idea if in the US there are further licensing requirements for things to be connected to the grid that would close the importing for personal use loophole.
Easy check, grab a voltmeter and do it yourself.
Pull the plug, set voltmeter to AC, and read the voltage across the prongs. If you get anything over the usual float voltage you get from just holding the probes ungrounded, then you have a problem.
The PRODUCT is designed to stop feeding OUT the plug if it doesn’t detect CURRENT from the socket. AC is alternating current so it pulses on and off so the solar system is doing the same. It’s turning on and off quickly and seeing if it gets power back and if it detects no power incoming it shuts off the power from the solar. It’s quite simple and ingenious.
ok I have to believe the guy replying is a shil at this point. Use of approved products is as old as the electric stystem. Its why the electric company does not have to come and inspect everything you have plugged into the grid and does not come out every time you get a new appliance. The standards are with the product as you correctly point out and the state does not allow on compliant products to be sold just like with refrigerators.
yup and if you install it wrong it’s you in trouble but you still can buy them and diy without a permit. They should just be regulated so only the certified ones can be sold.
“The utility” has never had a way to prevent you from doing something dangerous with your wiring or with the electricity they send you. The best we’ve managed has been to encourage appliance manufacturers to design their products with safety in mind, through the UL program (which is voluntary). This is why the writer talked to the “vice president of engineering at UL Solutions.”
Utilities must approve power export to the grid, even if you do the physical installation 100% off the books. It’s called “Permission to Operate”, which requires permits and passed inspections. You can’t just unilaterally add shit to the power grid.
Your link doesn’t mention anything about “balcony solar”.
“Application process for rooftop solar and other smaller systems”. If you want to export power to the grid from anything at all, you must go through this process. If you wanted to export power from a hamster on a wheel you must apply for PTO.
Because the whole point is to make solar easier and more affordable?
of course, but not at the cost of safety and grid reliability.
Again, “other small systems” does not mean “balcony solar”. It could just mean ground-mount systems. Everything I’ve found says it’s not required. I challenge you to find the opposite.
Balcony solar is pretty much “plug and play.” Depending on the state/municipality/utility rules, users can install it themselves and don’t have to jump through all the permitting and contractual hoops or pay electricians in order to get it up and running like homeowners who install rooftop solar do
How do you know? In a typical solar system, you have to have a permit, which requires an inspector to come out and ensure everything is configured correctly and safely. These don’t require any permits, which is great for making them more affordable and accessible, but there’s also no one coming around to make sure that anyone is doing it safely.
I know it because it’s in the spec necessary for licensing. It shuts off in under 20 ms so you can’t even get shocked by the prongs of the plug if pulled out.
What license? Who is coming to verify your license?
It is a commercial product, connected to the grid via a standard schuko plug, sold in Germany. It has to be compliant with the local law to be sold legally.
It all shouldn’t be so difficult to understand.
So you can’t buy raw solar panels or inverters in Germany?
It’s not, which is why I’m not sure why you’re struggling.
Sure you can. Solar panels will be fried by grid voltage more or less immediately if you connect them directly to a wall socket and become useless.
You cannot buy a PV inverter in Germany (entire EU really) that doesn’t automatically shut off if it doesn’t detect a frequency to sync against from it’s AC side, unless it can run off-grid in which case it has to disble the grid connection within the same 20ms.
So you can’t buy a grid-connected inverter with off-grid capabilities? Because the inverter has no way to tell the difference between the grid being off, and being off-grid.
Oh you can buy off grid inverters (or inverters capable of “island mode”). But they are required to be able to automatically disconnect from grid, even if they are never going to be connected to a grid. You can’t buy solar inverters without this for the exact reason that you can connect them to grid.
Again, it doesn’t matter what inverter you buy, they can’t tell the difference between off grid and grid off. So if it shuts off when it doesn’t detect voltage, then it won’t work off grid. Which makes it sound like you’re saying off-grid inverters are illegal.
Of course you can buy whatever you like, and whatever is being sold has to be compliant with local legal requirements.
If you buy illegal stuff and cause problems, you will have problems with your insurance and potentially, legal ones.
And that’s all I’m going to say on the matter. HAND.
There’s no way to prevent people from connecting perfectly legal equipment in an illegal manner, where otherwise there would be.
You are only allowed to sell inverters approved by VDE
Again I ask, if there is no permit, how will the utilities know you are in compliance with this law?
You are required to notify your utilities that you’ll be operating a direct plugged small solar PV installation, that’s it. They can’t forbid you from doing this.
The utilities don’t monitor compliance, the manufacturer is.
So it sounds like you’re saying there is no way? And therein lies the problem.
The certification on the product shows that it’s safe to use in grid-tie. What the fuck are you on about? Are you just being intentionally an obtuse pain in the ass?
Yeah, really weird. It seems like they had some kind of agenda or point to make, but they’re going about it a very strange way.
Are you a fucking moron? What’s to stop anyone from installing an uncertified product?
By now over 1.2 million people in Germany have registered (and even more have not registered) their legal small scale solar system and are producing their own electricity (mine covers 2/3rds of my total demand).
If you think that’s a problem, be my guest.
I don’t know if it’s a problem or not. Do you?
In the United States that would be UL Certification.
UL is not a license. It’s a certification. And you forgot the second question.
UL certification is a requirement for an electric or electronic product to be licensed for sale to consumers in the US. This is enforced on US manufacturers of a product and on importers.
Whilst people buying something from AliExpress for personal use and importing it themselves don’t have to obbey such requirements, those importing them or making them for sale in the US do.
The CE mark does the same thing in the EU.
No idea if in the US there are further licensing requirements for things to be connected to the grid that would close the importing for personal use loophole.
That is completely incorrect. I own a ton of equipment that is not UL listed.
Further, UL listed equipment is not prevented from backfeeding to the grid, and in fact most of it is intended for precisely that.
There aren’t.
You are correct.
A little digging shows that unlike the CE mark in the EU for electronics, “UL certification isn’t mandatory, but may be required when selling electronic items to retailers”.
Easy check, grab a voltmeter and do it yourself.
Pull the plug, set voltmeter to AC, and read the voltage across the prongs. If you get anything over the usual float voltage you get from just holding the probes ungrounded, then you have a problem.
By “you” I did not mean your personal solar system. I mean how does the utility know that other users that have systems connected are doing so safely?
The PRODUCT is designed to stop feeding OUT the plug if it doesn’t detect CURRENT from the socket. AC is alternating current so it pulses on and off so the solar system is doing the same. It’s turning on and off quickly and seeing if it gets power back and if it detects no power incoming it shuts off the power from the solar. It’s quite simple and ingenious.
ok I have to believe the guy replying is a shil at this point. Use of approved products is as old as the electric stystem. Its why the electric company does not have to come and inspect everything you have plugged into the grid and does not come out every time you get a new appliance. The standards are with the product as you correctly point out and the state does not allow on compliant products to be sold just like with refrigerators.
I am not asking how the technology works. I am asking how the utility verifies that people are using compliant products.
The same way they do now.
You realize generators exist right?
Permanently connected generators typically require permits.
yup and if you install it wrong it’s you in trouble but you still can buy them and diy without a permit. They should just be regulated so only the certified ones can be sold.
No, it’s the linemen who are in trouble.
So you want to ban the sale of raw solar panels and inverters?
I can go to the store today and get a generator and plug it right into my house and backfeed.
I know this is idiodic so I don’t do it.
It’s not just idiotic, it’s illegal, and you’ll face repercussions.
“The utility” has never had a way to prevent you from doing something dangerous with your wiring or with the electricity they send you. The best we’ve managed has been to encourage appliance manufacturers to design their products with safety in mind, through the UL program (which is voluntary). This is why the writer talked to the “vice president of engineering at UL Solutions.”
Yes they have. It’s called permitting.
And what’s stopping you from doing it anyway?
If you’re gonna break the law, you’re gonna break the law and we can just ignore any discussion of legality. But that’s not what we’re doing.
Utilities must approve power export to the grid, even if you do the physical installation 100% off the books. It’s called “Permission to Operate”, which requires permits and passed inspections. You can’t just unilaterally add shit to the power grid.
https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-interconnection-what-you-need-to-know/
According to my research, there is no such permit required in Utah. And presumably new legislation is looking to have this exception as well.
not true, you still need to apply to the utility to export to the grid.
https://www.rockymountainpower.net/savings-energy-choices/customer-generation.html
why “presumably”?
Your link doesn’t mention anything about “balcony solar”. And these systems are not supposed to export to the grid anyway.
Because the whole point is to make solar easier and more affordable?
“Application process for rooftop solar and other smaller systems”. If you want to export power to the grid from anything at all, you must go through this process. If you wanted to export power from a hamster on a wheel you must apply for PTO.
of course, but not at the cost of safety and grid reliability.
Again, “other small systems” does not mean “balcony solar”. It could just mean ground-mount systems. Everything I’ve found says it’s not required. I challenge you to find the opposite.
https://cechouston.org/2025/10/21/balcony-solar-something-new-under-the-sun/
E: downboats for facts, I guess
Downvote because you can be right and also be an asshole.
What part of that did you interpret as me being an asshole?