plug a solar panel into a large battery backup, plug the major appliances into that.
Utility companies don’t need to know shit.
That’s what I have. Basically a small-ish parallel electrical system that runs critical loads like a mini split, refrigerator, water heater, etc. And a small UPS for modem/server.
Out of curiosity, how do you have that setup (at a high level)?
I’ve got a bluetti system for emergency power (12kWh, 6kW AC output) but I need to plug things directly into it. It’d be nice to feed it directly to my house wiring but … selectively. That is, I wouldn’t want to power the HVAC but it would be nice to not have to shuffle the fridge/freezer plugs from the wall to the inverter.
Dedicated circuit(s) with a manual switch from mains to inverter, I’m guessing? But then we get into all the extras required to do that safely and avoid back feeding the grid.
Granted, they have systems/setups specifically for whole house power but I don’t want to feed the whole house, just the important circuits/appliances.
Basically made a really sturdy pergola and then mounted solar panels to it. Ran that wiring to the MPPT, batteries and inverter in the garage. Put in a new small breaker box right next to the existing one, which made it real easy to just grab the wires for the critical loads and run them over to the new panel.
No need to worry about backfeeding, as I said they’re parallel electrical systems, so it’s not possible.
My thoughts exactly. Also I wouldn’t really like to risk my stuff by connecting to their infrastructure anyway. At least over here, I saw how incompetent they are.
over here
Texas? 😂
Serbia / Hungary.
If your business is critical for modern human living, it should be non-profit. It should be guided by the best management plan of the time, debated and approved by the majority of shareholders. It should open its books and stay open.
Really, it should be government.
My power company is a co-op. They have long term contracts with various providers, so my power bill doesn’t fluctuate much on short term news.
At the end of every year, we get a dividend check in the mail for any excess profit.
Pretty sure all utilities should work that way.
“Non profit” “shareholders”. Pick one.
I assume they meant stakeholders…cuz like yo, that’s us!
Why don’t we just change the revenue model for power companies. I understand they need money to maintain the infrastructure and pay employees. If power generation becomes so cheap that it can’t sustain the company then don’t rely on that for revenue. I’d rather pay a flat rate for the infrastructure and operating costs than a fluctuating generation charge. And public utilities should not be for profit.
If power generation becomes so cheap that it can’t sustain the company then don’t rely on that for revenue.
I’m not aware of anywhere power generation is that cheap yet. That may be a problem for the future when commercial fusion is viable, but thats likely a lifetime away.
I’d rather pay a flat rate for the infrastructure and operating costs than a fluctuating generation charge.
I think everyone would, but the cost for generation is always fluctuating because the variation in the market for the fuels that generate electricity, supply, and demand of electricity on the market. If its a flat rate, and that rate is below the cost of generating the electricity, who pays?
Many places already do charge a “line charge” if you have solar power and use little or no utility company power. You pay for being hooked up to the grid even if you barely use it.
When I got solar panels on my previous home there was a $5 a month line charge. That when went up to $8 the next year, then $10, then closer to $20. The power company (Duke Energy in case anyway wants to the shitty company’s name) was determined to make it as painful as possible for people to use Solar. They were also apparently responsible for pushing to get it illegal in that area to go “off grid” and to have a cap on the amount of solar power a home could generate. At now point did these line changes stop them from raising the normal power usage rates mind you, this was just an extra “fuck you” from them.
That’s what your public service commission is for! (In most states). They come up with how the costs of the utility gets passed to consumers. I agree that making sure that infrastructure costs get passed to people who have solar panels, especially if they are relying on that infrastructure at sun-not-being-in-sky hours.
I mean, it makes sense to me that consumers can’t be pumping energy into the grid with no way to cut it off, but I’m not a lineman or some sort of civil engineer or whatever.
But if I were a lawmaker, I’d be on the phone with the Germans, who have 1.2M of these connected, and figuring out if and how they’re doing it safely. But lawmakers seem to be somehow incapable of reaching out to people who know fuck all about anything.
The microinverters stop feeding in if grid goes down. So it’s safe.
Hmmm, I wonder how this would affect things in the future where this is widely used.
I.E. if you had both widespread solar usage and some kind of large blackout, would it be hard to get all your solar back online because it’s all in the “waiting for the grid” state? And the grid can’t come back at capacity because all the solar it’s expecting is out?
I assume people smarter than me have this figured out, but just a random thought if anyone knows more.
You turn on parts of the grid at a time.
What happens when someone makes an unsafe backfeed into a downed grid and then other nearby inverters detect the current and bring themselves back online? Is there a way to detect if the load is being delivered from the utility vs from incorrectly configured solar or generator installations?
Some others are arguing back and forth about this elsewhere in the thread and I see the reasoning: unpermitted systems could accidentally energize isolated portions of the grid during downtime, which might trick properly installed systems to also come back online, and you have a runaway effect where there is enough current present to allow addition safety systems to be fooled.
There isn’t any data transmission over the wires; there either is current, or there isn’t. Arguing over permitting is moot - either safety systems can handle this scenario already, or they can’t.
All paperwork does is slow the relief of dependence on the utility, which hurts their profits.
The same thing that currently happens when somebody does that with a gas generator? Linepersons get zapped… people get sued… etc…
There isn’t any data transmission over the wires…
That’s very wrong. Not only can you extend Ethernet in your own home using your power outlets, the power companies have been reading meters this way for decades.
Linepersons get zapped… people get sued… etc…
Kinda seems like something you might want to avoid…
Obviously. I was just pointing out that it isn’t an issue unique to solar.
It is unique to “balcony solar”. Typical solar systems require permits and inspections before connecting.
No it isn’t. The same thing happens with the kind of gas generators you can get from your local hardware store all the time.
How do you know? In a typical solar system, you have to have a permit, which requires an inspector to come out and ensure everything is configured correctly and safely. These don’t require any permits, which is great for making them more affordable and accessible, but there’s also no one coming around to make sure that anyone is doing it safely.
I know it because it’s in the spec necessary for licensing. It shuts off in under 20 ms so you can’t even get shocked by the prongs of the plug if pulled out.
What license? Who is coming to verify your license?
It is a commercial product, connected to the grid via a standard schuko plug, sold in Germany. It has to be compliant with the local law to be sold legally.
It all shouldn’t be so difficult to understand.
It has to be compliant with the local law to be sold legally.
So you can’t buy raw solar panels or inverters in Germany?
It all shouldn’t be so difficult to understand.
It’s not, which is why I’m not sure why you’re struggling.
So you can’t buy raw solar panels or inverters in Germany?
Sure you can. Solar panels will be fried by grid voltage more or less immediately if you connect them directly to a wall socket and become useless.
You cannot buy a PV inverter in Germany (entire EU really) that doesn’t automatically shut off if it doesn’t detect a frequency to sync against from it’s AC side, unless it can run off-grid in which case it has to disble the grid connection within the same 20ms.
Of course you can buy whatever you like, and whatever is being sold has to be compliant with local legal requirements.
If you buy illegal stuff and cause problems, you will have problems with your insurance and potentially, legal ones.
And that’s all I’m going to say on the matter. HAND.
In the United States that would be UL Certification.
UL is not a license. It’s a certification. And you forgot the second question.
UL certification is a requirement for an electric or electronic product to be licensed for sale to consumers in the US. This is enforced on US manufacturers of a product and on importers.
Whilst people buying something from AliExpress for personal use and importing it themselves don’t have to obbey such requirements, those importing them or making them for sale in the US do.
The CE mark does the same thing in the EU.
No idea if in the US there are further licensing requirements for things to be connected to the grid that would close the importing for personal use loophole.
You are only allowed to sell inverters approved by VDE
Again I ask, if there is no permit, how will the utilities know you are in compliance with this law?
You are required to notify your utilities that you’ll be operating a direct plugged small solar PV installation, that’s it. They can’t forbid you from doing this.
The utilities don’t monitor compliance, the manufacturer is.
Easy check, grab a voltmeter and do it yourself.
Pull the plug, set voltmeter to AC, and read the voltage across the prongs. If you get anything over the usual float voltage you get from just holding the probes ungrounded, then you have a problem.By “you” I did not mean your personal solar system. I mean how does the utility know that other users that have systems connected are doing so safely?
The PRODUCT is designed to stop feeding OUT the plug if it doesn’t detect CURRENT from the socket. AC is alternating current so it pulses on and off so the solar system is doing the same. It’s turning on and off quickly and seeing if it gets power back and if it detects no power incoming it shuts off the power from the solar. It’s quite simple and ingenious.
ok I have to believe the guy replying is a shil at this point. Use of approved products is as old as the electric stystem. Its why the electric company does not have to come and inspect everything you have plugged into the grid and does not come out every time you get a new appliance. The standards are with the product as you correctly point out and the state does not allow on compliant products to be sold just like with refrigerators.
I am not asking how the technology works. I am asking how the utility verifies that people are using compliant products.
The same way they do now.
You realize generators exist right?
“The utility” has never had a way to prevent you from doing something dangerous with your wiring or with the electricity they send you. The best we’ve managed has been to encourage appliance manufacturers to design their products with safety in mind, through the UL program (which is voluntary). This is why the writer talked to the “vice president of engineering at UL Solutions.”
Utilities must approve power export to the grid, even if you do the physical installation 100% off the books. It’s called “Permission to Operate”, which requires permits and passed inspections. You can’t just unilaterally add shit to the power grid.
https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-interconnection-what-you-need-to-know/
According to my research, there is no such permit required in Utah. And presumably new legislation is looking to have this exception as well.
not true, you still need to apply to the utility to export to the grid.
https://www.rockymountainpower.net/savings-energy-choices/customer-generation.html
And presumably new legislation is looking to have this exception as well.
why “presumably”?
Your link doesn’t mention anything about “balcony solar”. And these systems are not supposed to export to the grid anyway.
why “presumably”?
Because the whole point is to make solar easier and more affordable?
Your link doesn’t mention anything about “balcony solar”.
“Application process for rooftop solar and other smaller systems”. If you want to export power to the grid from anything at all, you must go through this process. If you wanted to export power from a hamster on a wheel you must apply for PTO.
Because the whole point is to make solar easier and more affordable?
of course, but not at the cost of safety and grid reliability.
I had a chat about this with a friend who works for the national grid (UK).
Apparently the problem is keeping the grid balanced and stable. Basically, the grid struggles to react fast, so they plan ahead. Things like large scale solar can provide predictions on output. Home solar can’t.
When clouds pass over an area it can cause slumps and surges in the local grid. The more home solar, the worse it gets. The current grid is designed to work top down, with predictable changes in demand. It needs upgrading to deal with large scale bidirectional flows.
The plug in units are (potentially) even more ropey. If used properly, they are no worse than normal home solar. Unfortunately, being cheaper, there are worries over the microinverters not shutting down. Either due to the manufacturer cheaping out, or turning on an “off grid” mode.
There are also worries about overloading household circuits. Back feeding bypasses the household circuit breakers and RCDs. They could overload wall wiring and cause fires, or stop an RCD tripping, allowing for a person to be shocked.
I don’t know how much this would apply to the American Grid, but I would imagine it would be worse. Your grid is older and larger. You also use 120VAC which makes the current overload issue a lot worse.
You also use 120VAC which makes the current overload issue a lot worse.
Voltage inside of residences is 120v AC, but its 240v thats delivered to each house. I think a bigger difference is that in the USA that 240v AC is single phase where I believe (Germany included) many nations in the EU are 3 phase.
The USA does have 3 phase power for most commercial applications though.
These systems are designed to not push power back up if the grid goes down. In most areas, the municipality won’t even allow a solar installation to be connected or even finished without it being inspected to verify you have that sort of setup.
What system?
My research shows theres no permitting required in Utah but please correct me if I’m wrong.
Did you respond to the wrong message? Nothing I said anything to do with Utah.
Did you respond to the wrong thread? Because the OP is about Utah.
The article clearly mentions California, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Washington and Wyoming. Perhaps others that I missed as well. Your comment I replied to was not specific to a location, you said “it makes sense to me that consumers can’t be pumping energy into the grid with no way to cut it off” and I was letting you know that it shouldn’t be a concern because that isn’t how solar power systems work. Do you think that Utah will work different for some reason?
The article clearly mentions California, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Washington and Wyoming.
Those are potential future locations, not current ones. Any discussion around them would be purely hypothetical. I am discussing reality.
that isn’t how solar power systems work.
Solar systems can work in any number of ways. That’s why we have regulation, to ensure they do work in specific ways. Utah currently has no such regulation. It’s “plug and play”. People literally just buy them, hang them up, and plug them in.
In the US, reaching out to other countries for advice, even if they’re our allies, seems to be viewed as treason. At a minimum, seems like treason against “real” masculinity, on which American culture is fueled, especially now.
‘Why don’t you just stop to ask for directions?’
‘I know where I’m going!!1!1111!1!!!1!’
🙄
They are commonly used in many parts of Europe.
If you drop some Tariff percentages, we might be willing to advise.
Sure, but the article specifically mentions Germany, which leads me to believe they’re likely most abundant in that region?
Pretty sure there are tons of people who would be willing to advise on how to improve the world without discussion of tariffs that are entirely in the control of a single moron-in-chief.
Germany has a lot of plug-in solar for balconies (Balkonkraftwerke) and it’s available at very cheap prices (example here). I know it only provides up to 800W on a very sunny day but that’s still a significant amount for an apartment. And the beauty of these is that they are so plug-and-play, everything is included. You hang it, connect the cables and plug it into a socket and then you’re done.
I live in the Netherlands but I’ve been seriously considering picking up one of these if my building HoA doesn’t want to do a rooftop solar project for our building.
Yes, that was mentioned in the OP as well as the comment you replied to.
I mean, it makes sense to me that consumers can’t be pumping energy into the grid with no way to cut it off,
I’m certain they’re designed to safely be able to do this
Almost certainly, because people use gas generators as backup in storm hit areas all the time.
What are?
The grid. Or more specifically, the SCADA computers that are constantly monitoring and controlling the entire system.
There is no safe way to service live wires.
Service? Who’s talking about servicing live wires? You do realize that these are very complex systems with tons of safeguards, right?
Service? Who’s talking about servicing live wires?
What conversation did you think we were having? Why do you think the utilities in OP are discussing “the safety of our linemen”? Why do you think backfeeding to a downed electrical grid is a problem?
You do realize that these are very complex systems with tons of safeguards, right?
You do realize that none of those safeguards protect linemen from live wires, right? That’s why we have laws and permits that regulate systems capable of backfeeding power to the grid.
Ugh, not Germany. Try the Netherlands. In Germany it is a huge bureaucratic undertaking to put energy back into the grid. In the Netherlands (as far as I know) your meter just runs backwards and at the end of the year you just pay the difference or nothing if it’s lower than the year before.
In Germany your electricity provider pays you for what you put back into the grid. But not as much as pulling out is worth. That’s why almost all solar solutions in Germany are either small or need a battery because using the energy yourself is worth more than sharing it with everyone.
There are people in the Netherlands that have the system you describe. This is pretty rare though due to the massive push for new energy meters that’s been going on for the last 10 years or so. And with good reason: lots of the old meters people had were pretty unsafe and unreliable. For most people, having automatic usage reports going to both them and the electricity provider far outweighs the downsides.
Most of us are in a similar situation as Germany. We have smart meters that allow you to provide power back to the grid and this is currently very profitable. However, from 2027 onwards they are (mostly) getting rid of the profits this brings the consumer, in order to make the grid more stable and also for other, less clear (most likely energy company and government spending related) reasons.
As someone who’s worked in the grid provider field for a bit I’m not necessarily against this change; peak power surges due to lots of people selling of their excess solar power production is a huge problem that’s making the energy transition that much more difficult. Even in local grids, we’re starting to have to use massive power cables to be able to handle this. This brings with it a lot of extra costs and permit nonsense, making the life of the grid manager that much more difficult.
I wish people would take this upcoming deadline to start electrying more things in their house. But if my parents are anything to go by, all they’ll do is complain about losing their golden goose that they’ve profited from for over 10 years. They could get an electric car instead of their nonsense plug-in hybrid, they could electrify their heating needs, they could install a home battery and so much more. I know it costs money to do so but you basically run all of it for free most of the year. And besides that, with all the current global issues that are going on the reliance on fossil fuels should be phased out rapidly.
Thanks, that actually makes the German way sound more sane and more manageable.
I wasn’t aware balcony solar isn’t a thing in other countries because it’s everywhere here in Germany. So I was wondering what new thing they are talking about being even more easier.
They have been constantly working to reach out to the utility companies to find a way to halt this.
It is more than just the concern around back-feeding the grid. These simple balcony setups connect to your home grid via a single outlet. Most US outlets/circuits are 15 AMP or roughly 1500 watts max capacity. These single circuits can only carry that much current total at any one time so if you have it loaded up with incoming power AND use anything else on the circuit at the same time … no bueno. To make this setup work best/safely you would ideally want a dedicated circuit for it which is basically non-existent today.
The safety issues really do need to be addressed because the folks most likely to use these systems are apartment dwellers and I don’t think anyone wants to increase fire risk in these scenarios.
Most US outlets/circuits are 15 AMP or roughly 1500 watts max capacity.
That’s why they’re limited to 1200 watts.
His point was that if you’ve got 1200w incoming from the panel then you only have 300w of overhead on that circuit before the circuit breaker blows.
Sure, it’s within the limit on its own, but without a dedicated circuit for it you’ll be blowing a fuse pretty frequently when trying to use nearby plugs and lights.
As I said, that’s not how that works. You can have 10A incoming and 10A outgoing and the circuit load is still 10A.
Idk man. It’s probably over my head but I still don’t think the wires themselves could take it. In my thought process you’ve got more electricity flowing around on the circuit and even if it gets used before getting to the breaker things are going to be heating up pretty quick.
To me it sounds like trying to hook up a power plant to a data center via an indoor extension cord. It’s gonna melt.
I think the warning you might be thinking of is that a breaker can fail to pop if an inverter/generator is on the same circuit as a high wattage device. Since some energy would go directly from generation to device, the breaker will only see the “net” energy consumption. So if the generator puts out 1500W and the device decides to draw 3000W, a 15A breaker only sees 1500, and won’t trip even though the device is pulling way too much. If the breaker was sized for the wiring, then the wiring to that outlet could catch fire due to the breaker not tripping. That’s the main reason I know of why a generator or inverter should be on a dedicated circuit, to force the energy out one breaker and in another, so that the breaker can see an accurate measure of energy and trip when necessary.
I do know, man.
even if it gets used before getting to the breaker
It would be both added and consumed after the breaker. Like if you had a 10A solar system connected to a dual outlet, and a 10A space heater on the other outlet, there would only be 10A flowing through the outlet, and nowhere else in the system
Yes, I was conceding that point. I was then worried about the actual romex in the walls entirely contained after the breaker. Are you able to pump as much power as you want at 15A on a 15A rated wire? There’s got to be some limit, right?
1200 incoming + 1 hairdryer at the same time equals overloaded circuit though.
That’s now how that works. You got 1200 coming in and 1200 going out, so the solar would just power the dryer directly.
I think the risk is more that someone has a 15A-rated outlet on a 15A circuit breaker, plugs a solar panel into one socket and then a power strip with 30A of space heaters into the other socket. Breaker doesn’t trip because the main panel is only providing 15A, but the outlet lights on fire.
Not sure why that isn’t a problem in places these are more common.
Ah, that is a good point. I wonder how they’re mitigating that.
(this is the same reason that big solar systems require an oversized busbar on your main panel)
This is not it. Not only is there a microinverter and a breaker there to address that issue, but my understanding as a layman is the load in the circuit is down to how much you’re drawing (i.e. if you’re generating 1200 behind the microinverter and pulling 1500 you’re pulling 1500 through the circuit, not 2700).
The bigger fire hazard here is the battery many of these come with for storage, honestly.
That’s not to say there isn’t a bit of a risk. You need to be careful if you need to do something in the installation that you disable both the grid breaker and the microinverter. Otherwise it’s entirely possible for the grid safety to blow and the inverter to keep pumping power into your house. But as the previous poster says, there’s a reason these are legal to install in apartments all over Europe, and it’s not just European grids being set for higher amps. FWIW, most of these kits come with 800W max out. My understanding is they’re perfectly fine to use as a cost mitigation and they’ll keep your fridge going in a blackout but no, they won’t be constantly tripping your fuse.
If you use anything else on the circuit the power from the solar will just go directly into that device and bypass the wall wiring entirely.
There are a lot of circuits in the US that power multiple duplex outlets around a room. You could plug in a solar panel into one outlet and a load into another and they would be connected by a length of Romex in the walls.
Generally that’s fine and I agree, but one edge case that people overlook that I think is worth mentioning (and maybe what gp heard about and is trying to articulate) is that having an inverter or generator on the same circuit as a big energy consumer means that the breaker wouldn’t see the total energy being used by the consumer, and so it might not trip even if the consumer pulls too much wattage. That’s the main reason I know of why power sources should be on their own breaker - so it doesn’t hide power from the breaker but forces it to go out the generator circuit breaker and back in the consumer breaker so it can be protected properly.
This is why balkonkraftwerk is limited to 800 W feed-in.
I just got off the phone with a solar installer and they had 2 products, one which cost nearly 60-100k to install and could be done right away because of a deal with my local gov and electric utility. Also the net metering rate and credits are getting reduced by the same utility which is actually making a return on investment harder.
OR
Another solar product costs 40k but it may take years to get approval which is not guaranteed because so far every attempt for approval from the local gov and electric utility have been in limbo or flat out denied.
🤔
In many areas, they flat out don’t allow the second one at all.
that’s so blatant
what about a solar panel that feeds into a battery? my winter bill spiked due to using a space heater, for instance. If I could have plugged into a pattery, skipued the grid, that would have been great. Is it that the cost of the battery would be too high?
How hard is it to use something you plug in and leave sitting somewhere facing the sun? 🤨
We should also use public banking to allow apartment complexes where the majority want regular solar to have it installed and paid back as a cut of the solar savings.
My backyard faces west and I’d happily fill half of it with plug-in panels if I could.
I’m really interested in this technology. I can’t get a roof solar installation. I want a add a few panels but I don’t know where to practically start.
Buy a corn farm and change the crop from corn to solar. Between 25% and 48% of the corn in the US is turned into ethanol for cars. You’d be doing double duty combating climate change, and living the capitalists wet dream of one time investment with constant return.
I would stop at buying a house. I worked on a farm. I now work with computers. It is on purpose.
Totally understandable why you’d change career paths from farming to computer related things, that shit is hard AF and a nightmare.
Solar farms though are way easier than other kinds of farms though, in fact I’d say it’s closer to computer work than farm work.
Basically monitor output, keep the panels clean, and keep debris to a minimum around the panels. Oh and of course repairs, but without moving parts those repairs are gonna be happening less often than other kinds of power generation.
Thanks. I may have more questions.
The people on there are super knowledgeable. The guy who started the forum has a pretty good YouTube channel too.
