Oh my God, I super agree, probably in a way not a lot of readers here will expect.
Joining narcotics anonymous or alcoholics anonymous comes with an immediate expectation that you will “accept a higher power”. It is step one of “the program”. I find that profane as an atheist. And it was a huge problem when I tried to join the program.
I won’t get into it further, because it would be long enough for its own post, but the religious dogma in the 12 step programs, including alcoholics anonymous, is an incredible and introductory load of the bullshit that only expands further into more egregious loads of bullshit as you progress through the 12 steps. Some of it helps. Some of it makes everything much worse.
The 12 step recovery programs were invented by amateurs in 1936. If you’re looking to recover from addiction, there have been invented far more effective programs for recovery in the last 100 years by professionals who actually know what they’re doing.
If you want to treat your addiction to alcohol or other addictive substances, do your research. 12 step programs have, at best, a 6% success rate. They are your worst option. You can do better. You deserve better.
12 step programs are only there to shame you and guarantee failure. You will get nothing else there other than a community of shame and failure. And garbage religious dogma shoved down your throat.
Edit: I will say, however, that the vast majority of the people in those programs are looking not only to help themselves, but honestly caring enough to try to help others. So I am not judging them, just judging the program itself and how it has aged out of its own usefulness.
I’ve never been to a meeting, but I’ve always heard the only way through AA is with God. And as a lifelong atheist, I don’t think that would work for me. I’d just be lying to get them to shut up lol (which would not be doing myself the real service I would need at that point).
I’m surprised there isn’t a more secular AA program. I can see the appeal of AA meetings without the 12 steps piece.
What’s the point of accepting a higher power? Is it so that we can just put the blame on them? Or accept our place in this grand equation? I think we can already do the latter without a god.
I’d love to read more if you do end up making a separate post!
I’m in the camp that I’ll bite a little, they just have to let me know who the “higher power” is. Require me to make up a floaty ghost that is responsible for everything and all the good stuff is a miracle, but all the bad stuff is from a weaker being that the higher power just ignores… Well that seems a bit like a cop-out.
If that really is who they want me to follow, will they keep PETA off my back, I’ve had a few rough crops and I think I remember a passage that will help… I just gotta find some find some “clean animals”.
I’m in the camp that I’ll bite a little, they just have to let me know who the “higher power” is. Require me to make up a floaty ghost that is responsible for everything and all the good stuff is a miracle, but all the bad stuff is from a weaker being that the higher power just ignores… Well that seems a bit like a cop-out.
If that really is who they want me to follow, will they keep PETA off my back, I’ve had a few rough crops and I think I remember a passage that will help… I just gotta find some find some “clean animals”.
SMART Recovery is a science-based alternative that uses Cognitive Behavior Therapy techniques. I don’t know what their success rate is, but people I know have been helped by their programs.
There is a ton of tacit religious dogma in a lot of American society/behavior in particular. It really shines out when you don’t come from a Christian upbringing.
They took some anecdotal evidence from people that weren’t addicted to justify the “do it for a higher power.” People with issues (of almost any kind) more often feel shame bc they are letting the “higher power” down. It leads to disaster a lot.
I love your insight.
While I largely agree, most (not all, ofc) AA chapters will clarify that a “higher power” doesn’t have to be god. Could be fate, causality, or just the universe in and of itself - the purpose of the step is surrendering and accepting that you alone cannot resolve your addiction.
That being said, religion is pushed on you more often than not and many chapters will end with “the Lord’s Prayer” which always bothered me, along with other issues.
It’s not a perfect system, but it does work for many people and if it has helped you then all power to you (or rather your higher power, I guess)
My main gripe is that it often focuses on the symptoms rather than the root problem. Addiction is often the result of a deeper underlying condition that leads one to seek escape using substances, which then leads to physical and/or psychological dependency- be that depression, trauma, psychological conditions, etc… Treating the addiction alone can break the dependency but leaves alone the same conditions that led to substance abuse in the first place, which I believe is why you will so often see people repeatedly cycling in and out of the program.
To a certain extent you are correct and that is the point. For those leaders not so engrossed in the dogma abstracting away the idea of god acts as a bridge. Someone showing up to AA must believe in something outside of themselves as being more important than themselves otherwise why would you improve yourself? For religious leaders who operate in institutions, the ways of the institutions must be upheld, but it is also obvious that the institutional ways are bullshit and change is slow, so compromise is made to enable those who see through the bullshit to participate without drawing the ire of the “true believers”
edit: this compromise has been going on for a while and acts as the basis of the Unitarian-Universalist denomination
Someone showing up to AA must believe in something outside of themselves as being more important than themselves otherwise why would you improve yourself?
Because I don’t want to be an addict anymore? I have major issues with this. It’s like when people need the threat of eternal damnation in order to not be a complete piece of shit.
I don’t need to believe in a higher power in order to want to be an addict anymore.
It’s like when people need the threat of eternal damnation in order to not be a complete piece of shit.
Outside of the obvious religious propaganda, this is just an external motivation. It could just as easily be somebody’s family: an ailing mother for whom they need to be ready to take care of, or a spouse and children for whom throwing their life away would be tragic.
I could say the reason I’m a humanitarian now is because I have a firm belief in happiness. If I lost that today, I probably wouldn’t change, but if I never had it, I have no idea if I ever would have gotten here.
If someone is in a bad place now and does not have an external motivation, I’m not saying it should be this or that, but it would make sense to give them one.
I mean, I do think AA is being coercive. I would prefer that they helped their… patients(?) find a motivation that was already meaningful to them instead of just imposing Christianity onto them. I have a lot of other problems with religion besides.
Personally I just turned that into a mantra, removing the “god” part, because it is a good thing to remember and try to live by, but I get the irritation
Wow. Im an atheist. Im in an aa mtg room waiting for the mtg to start. No one gives me shit.
Step 2 is just accepting help. Admitting your not the one that has the all the answers. Every modern treatment ive heard of in 20 yrs either cribs aa, or eventually recommends it. Its not perfect, but I know dozens of people that are only alive because of it.
One of the steps is believing in a higher power. I was kicked out of rehab for denying this sentiment. They try to say that “OH, it could be anything!” and then continuously push Bible verses on you. The AA handbook is mostly Bible verses and evangelical propaganda.
The core ideas can work for some people. If those meetings help, despite your beliefs, then keep going. The one thing that has helped me is actually wanting to stop. That takes a lot, even if you don’t recognize it.
They will blab on and on in AA, and it is 100% based in biblical texts (though there is an attempt to include everyone). And, sadly, one of the main things they will do in rehab is force you to sit in “meetings” where they have a guest speaker join. Guess what that speaker does - they try to convince you to join a very expensive rehoming, AA, or NA living facility.
My point is, the end goal is to want, not need, to stop. This takes a lot. After 20 years of drinking I had to want to stop to actually do it. For the same amount of time for smoking, the best I could do was switch to modern nicotine pouches. It worked. I haven’t smoked in about 7 months, but since I don’t want to give up nicotine yet, I can’t. I’m trying to want to.
This is a long comment now, but my point is that the entire goal of the 12 steps sans religion is to convince yourself that you don’t want that anymore.
There are no official AA or NA living facilities. Its against the 12 traditions. If someone characterized it that way to you then they were mistaken, or some group that isnt AA or NA is trying to take advantage of their reputation.
I’ve lived in recovery houses. A home that is maintained as a place for recovering people to live. Sort of like a halfway house, but not for people being released from jail. It was the only rent I could afford, being homeless (100 a week 20 yrs ago, where rent on a studio was double that). They required attendance in some recovery program, but not necessarily 12 step. It was a come up for me. If you own a home, or are stable in your housing in some otherway, its not really an advantage.
Unless you know the people there. I moved into 2 houses where I had already been friends with the people living there, through NA mtg attendance. So it was just like having roommates. Thats often not the case though.
I see people poo poo 12 step recovery and recovery houses all the time, and Ill admit, we’re talking about unstable people doing their best. I had already developed a good street sense by the time I hit the rooms, so if thats not the case for you, it can be off putting to find out what its like at the bottom for a lot of people.
The religious stuff, ill just say, you were talking to pushy individuals. They are out there. I actually have people tell me that theyre glad im an atheist, so a new person can see they dont have to listen to the Bible thumper in the mtg. I shoot em down every time. Im too smart for their scripts lol.
I just dont want someone to read this thread and avoid their local group without ever trying it. Its free and lasts an hour. If you think the people are assholes, try a different 1 maybe. After a couple hours investment, you’ll know if you can hang with the folks there or not.
I was required to sit in on basically ads for over priced living spaces in rehab, in multiple locations. It is especially bad in the free state sponsored rehabs here. Regarding the religious stuff, Christianity is literally all over the AA Big Book. AA is religious. Court cases repeatedly find that Alcoholics Anonymous is religious in nature. As a result, no agent of government may legally require anyone to attend AA. AA, and by inheritance, NA is entirely religious in nature. If you are not religious, most of it will fall flat.
If it winds up working for you, that’s great, seriously. People should at least try it, especially since the sense of community can really be what’s needed to help you.
It should also be said that experiences will vary by region and program wildly. I just can’t say that I personally ever gained anything positive from it other than encouragement (which has really helped).
I agree AA, and NA should not be govt mandated. Id just say its spiritual instead of religious. I know thats a worn thin sentence, but I think it highlights the above mentioned difficulty of developing the desire to stay stopped. If you’ve spent years in the street, a whole different approach to life is required, but completely foreign. You gotta trust someone else’s suggestions on a sort of blind faith at first until you see results. Unfortunately, like you say, its the Bible stuff the programs were originally rooted in that is most common. I decided to be the change I wanted to see in my area, and its well received every time.
When I stay sober for years without saying the lord’s prayer or even appealing to sky daddy, and have grounded real experience as both an active addict and a recovering addict, you cant argue. I have always had a desire to help others and I was taught “each one teach one.” My sponsor said, if youre the first athiest here, teach the second, and save a life. I stay partly because I want an atheist to be able to find me. I dont even have to be at the meeting they show up to because people know about me now, and can just be like “yeah I know a guy thats an atheist, dont sweat it.”
Different approaches work for different people, and every room and every meeting is different. I’ve personally found Smart Recovery to be more helpful.
I’ve never found them anywhere I’ve lived. After a quick google, it seems the main difference is the powerlessness in 1 and the higher power in 2. To me that’s just recognizing i cant stop once I start, and I cant stay stopped without help. Thats it thats all. Its not something I was taught, I’ve proven it to myself. Some people see a devil/God thing there because the culture in America in the 1930s was nominally Christian, and more observant than today.
The main benefit is I can find a meeting in almost any town, any day of the week. I feel at home in a meeting where I know everyone knows what its like to deal with addiction. I can sit down and feel ok, instead of on gaurd.
I am interested to know how low bottom cases fare in smart recovery. I mean like homeless junkies that boost for a living. 12 step recovery seems to have started from the bottom, and smart recovery from the higher bottom cases.
Daniella Young (Knitting Cult Lady) is a cult scholar talks extensively about this as well as other cults. I highly recommend her for more info on this and how terrible these groups are for anyone who is interested.
I’ve followed her for a little bit now. I guess yt could tell I seen a cup of perc coffee or two and showed me her videos about AA. Ill say, she’s not wrong about poor behavior of repected members. She’s missing a lot of context though.
She wants a top down enforcement of policy to root out bad behavior. Completely reasonable in a govt, business, or religion that has leadership that is stable for the most part for years at a time. This is not the case for AA. Most groups that meet on a given day are simply the people in driving range that want to chat and work on themselves a bit in some quick group talk therapy. The membership is informal so as not to put of the reticent. That might sound sus, but these are people that constantly refuse help, easily accessible help sometimes. People change groups, join multiple, join none but attend many, and a manner of things.
Its like asking America as a whole to do better with allowing pdf files to victimize children. Yes, but its not like anyone’s encouraging it… and if anyone is a creep we watch out for it and warn people when necessary. Just like any group of friends in a neighborhood. Which is what we are, imo.
Oh my God, I super agree, probably in a way not a lot of readers here will expect.
Joining narcotics anonymous or alcoholics anonymous comes with an immediate expectation that you will “accept a higher power”. It is step one of “the program”. I find that profane as an atheist. And it was a huge problem when I tried to join the program.
I won’t get into it further, because it would be long enough for its own post, but the religious dogma in the 12 step programs, including alcoholics anonymous, is an incredible and introductory load of the bullshit that only expands further into more egregious loads of bullshit as you progress through the 12 steps. Some of it helps. Some of it makes everything much worse.
The 12 step recovery programs were invented by amateurs in 1936. If you’re looking to recover from addiction, there have been invented far more effective programs for recovery in the last 100 years by professionals who actually know what they’re doing.
If you want to treat your addiction to alcohol or other addictive substances, do your research. 12 step programs have, at best, a 6% success rate. They are your worst option. You can do better. You deserve better.
12 step programs are only there to shame you and guarantee failure. You will get nothing else there other than a community of shame and failure. And garbage religious dogma shoved down your throat.
Edit: I will say, however, that the vast majority of the people in those programs are looking not only to help themselves, but honestly caring enough to try to help others. So I am not judging them, just judging the program itself and how it has aged out of its own usefulness.
I appreciate this post!
I’ve never been to a meeting, but I’ve always heard the only way through AA is with God. And as a lifelong atheist, I don’t think that would work for me. I’d just be lying to get them to shut up lol (which would not be doing myself the real service I would need at that point).
I’m surprised there isn’t a more secular AA program. I can see the appeal of AA meetings without the 12 steps piece.
What’s the point of accepting a higher power? Is it so that we can just put the blame on them? Or accept our place in this grand equation? I think we can already do the latter without a god.
I’d love to read more if you do end up making a separate post!
I suggest you look into programs like SMART Recovery that are science based.
I’m in the camp that I’ll bite a little, they just have to let me know who the “higher power” is. Require me to make up a floaty ghost that is responsible for everything and all the good stuff is a miracle, but all the bad stuff is from a weaker being that the higher power just ignores… Well that seems a bit like a cop-out.
If that really is who they want me to follow, will they keep PETA off my back, I’ve had a few rough crops and I think I remember a passage that will help… I just gotta find some find some “clean animals”.
I’m in the camp that I’ll bite a little, they just have to let me know who the “higher power” is. Require me to make up a floaty ghost that is responsible for everything and all the good stuff is a miracle, but all the bad stuff is from a weaker being that the higher power just ignores… Well that seems a bit like a cop-out.
If that really is who they want me to follow, will they keep PETA off my back, I’ve had a few rough crops and I think I remember a passage that will help… I just gotta find some find some “clean animals”.
SMART Recovery is a science-based alternative that uses Cognitive Behavior Therapy techniques. I don’t know what their success rate is, but people I know have been helped by their programs.
yeah fuck that i am my own higher power
Me too, but I’m also my own worst enemy :)
There is a ton of tacit religious dogma in a lot of American society/behavior in particular. It really shines out when you don’t come from a Christian upbringing.
It really shines when you are brought up christian, now atheist, how fucking entwined the state and Church are
I’ve been struck how even a lot of atheist circles operate under a de facto Christian framework.
They took some anecdotal evidence from people that weren’t addicted to justify the “do it for a higher power.” People with issues (of almost any kind) more often feel shame bc they are letting the “higher power” down. It leads to disaster a lot. I love your insight.
While I largely agree, most (not all, ofc) AA chapters will clarify that a “higher power” doesn’t have to be god. Could be fate, causality, or just the universe in and of itself - the purpose of the step is surrendering and accepting that you alone cannot resolve your addiction.
That being said, religion is pushed on you more often than not and many chapters will end with “the Lord’s Prayer” which always bothered me, along with other issues.
It’s not a perfect system, but it does work for many people and if it has helped you then all power to you (or rather your higher power, I guess)
My main gripe is that it often focuses on the symptoms rather than the root problem. Addiction is often the result of a deeper underlying condition that leads one to seek escape using substances, which then leads to physical and/or psychological dependency- be that depression, trauma, psychological conditions, etc… Treating the addiction alone can break the dependency but leaves alone the same conditions that led to substance abuse in the first place, which I believe is why you will so often see people repeatedly cycling in and out of the program.
This is such a bullshit cop out
To a certain extent you are correct and that is the point. For those leaders not so engrossed in the dogma abstracting away the idea of god acts as a bridge. Someone showing up to AA must believe in something outside of themselves as being more important than themselves otherwise why would you improve yourself? For religious leaders who operate in institutions, the ways of the institutions must be upheld, but it is also obvious that the institutional ways are bullshit and change is slow, so compromise is made to enable those who see through the bullshit to participate without drawing the ire of the “true believers”
edit: this compromise has been going on for a while and acts as the basis of the Unitarian-Universalist denomination
Because I don’t want to be an addict anymore? I have major issues with this. It’s like when people need the threat of eternal damnation in order to not be a complete piece of shit.
I don’t need to believe in a higher power in order to want to be an addict anymore.
Outside of the obvious religious propaganda, this is just an external motivation. It could just as easily be somebody’s family: an ailing mother for whom they need to be ready to take care of, or a spouse and children for whom throwing their life away would be tragic.
I could say the reason I’m a humanitarian now is because I have a firm belief in happiness. If I lost that today, I probably wouldn’t change, but if I never had it, I have no idea if I ever would have gotten here.
If someone is in a bad place now and does not have an external motivation, I’m not saying it should be this or that, but it would make sense to give them one.
I mean, I do think AA is being coercive. I would prefer that they helped their… patients(?) find a motivation that was already meaningful to them instead of just imposing Christianity onto them. I have a lot of other problems with religion besides.
Thats true, but then they will turn around and start praying.
“God, grant me the…” It is kind of hard to look past that for some.
Yeah :\
Personally I just turned that into a mantra, removing the “god” part, because it is a good thing to remember and try to live by, but I get the irritation
Wow. Im an atheist. Im in an aa mtg room waiting for the mtg to start. No one gives me shit.
Step 2 is just accepting help. Admitting your not the one that has the all the answers. Every modern treatment ive heard of in 20 yrs either cribs aa, or eventually recommends it. Its not perfect, but I know dozens of people that are only alive because of it.
One of the steps is believing in a higher power. I was kicked out of rehab for denying this sentiment. They try to say that “OH, it could be anything!” and then continuously push Bible verses on you. The AA handbook is mostly Bible verses and evangelical propaganda.
The core ideas can work for some people. If those meetings help, despite your beliefs, then keep going. The one thing that has helped me is actually wanting to stop. That takes a lot, even if you don’t recognize it.
They will blab on and on in AA, and it is 100% based in biblical texts (though there is an attempt to include everyone). And, sadly, one of the main things they will do in rehab is force you to sit in “meetings” where they have a guest speaker join. Guess what that speaker does - they try to convince you to join a very expensive rehoming, AA, or NA living facility.
My point is, the end goal is to want, not need, to stop. This takes a lot. After 20 years of drinking I had to want to stop to actually do it. For the same amount of time for smoking, the best I could do was switch to modern nicotine pouches. It worked. I haven’t smoked in about 7 months, but since I don’t want to give up nicotine yet, I can’t. I’m trying to want to.
This is a long comment now, but my point is that the entire goal of the 12 steps sans religion is to convince yourself that you don’t want that anymore.
There are no official AA or NA living facilities. Its against the 12 traditions. If someone characterized it that way to you then they were mistaken, or some group that isnt AA or NA is trying to take advantage of their reputation.
I’ve lived in recovery houses. A home that is maintained as a place for recovering people to live. Sort of like a halfway house, but not for people being released from jail. It was the only rent I could afford, being homeless (100 a week 20 yrs ago, where rent on a studio was double that). They required attendance in some recovery program, but not necessarily 12 step. It was a come up for me. If you own a home, or are stable in your housing in some otherway, its not really an advantage.
Unless you know the people there. I moved into 2 houses where I had already been friends with the people living there, through NA mtg attendance. So it was just like having roommates. Thats often not the case though.
I see people poo poo 12 step recovery and recovery houses all the time, and Ill admit, we’re talking about unstable people doing their best. I had already developed a good street sense by the time I hit the rooms, so if thats not the case for you, it can be off putting to find out what its like at the bottom for a lot of people.
The religious stuff, ill just say, you were talking to pushy individuals. They are out there. I actually have people tell me that theyre glad im an atheist, so a new person can see they dont have to listen to the Bible thumper in the mtg. I shoot em down every time. Im too smart for their scripts lol.
I just dont want someone to read this thread and avoid their local group without ever trying it. Its free and lasts an hour. If you think the people are assholes, try a different 1 maybe. After a couple hours investment, you’ll know if you can hang with the folks there or not.
I was required to sit in on basically ads for over priced living spaces in rehab, in multiple locations. It is especially bad in the free state sponsored rehabs here. Regarding the religious stuff, Christianity is literally all over the AA Big Book. AA is religious. Court cases repeatedly find that Alcoholics Anonymous is religious in nature. As a result, no agent of government may legally require anyone to attend AA. AA, and by inheritance, NA is entirely religious in nature. If you are not religious, most of it will fall flat.
If it winds up working for you, that’s great, seriously. People should at least try it, especially since the sense of community can really be what’s needed to help you.
It should also be said that experiences will vary by region and program wildly. I just can’t say that I personally ever gained anything positive from it other than encouragement (which has really helped).
Thats a shame about the rehab.
I agree AA, and NA should not be govt mandated. Id just say its spiritual instead of religious. I know thats a worn thin sentence, but I think it highlights the above mentioned difficulty of developing the desire to stay stopped. If you’ve spent years in the street, a whole different approach to life is required, but completely foreign. You gotta trust someone else’s suggestions on a sort of blind faith at first until you see results. Unfortunately, like you say, its the Bible stuff the programs were originally rooted in that is most common. I decided to be the change I wanted to see in my area, and its well received every time.
When I stay sober for years without saying the lord’s prayer or even appealing to sky daddy, and have grounded real experience as both an active addict and a recovering addict, you cant argue. I have always had a desire to help others and I was taught “each one teach one.” My sponsor said, if youre the first athiest here, teach the second, and save a life. I stay partly because I want an atheist to be able to find me. I dont even have to be at the meeting they show up to because people know about me now, and can just be like “yeah I know a guy thats an atheist, dont sweat it.”
Great chat. Hope you’re in a great place today.
Different approaches work for different people, and every room and every meeting is different. I’ve personally found Smart Recovery to be more helpful.
I’ve never found them anywhere I’ve lived. After a quick google, it seems the main difference is the powerlessness in 1 and the higher power in 2. To me that’s just recognizing i cant stop once I start, and I cant stay stopped without help. Thats it thats all. Its not something I was taught, I’ve proven it to myself. Some people see a devil/God thing there because the culture in America in the 1930s was nominally Christian, and more observant than today.
The main benefit is I can find a meeting in almost any town, any day of the week. I feel at home in a meeting where I know everyone knows what its like to deal with addiction. I can sit down and feel ok, instead of on gaurd.
I am interested to know how low bottom cases fare in smart recovery. I mean like homeless junkies that boost for a living. 12 step recovery seems to have started from the bottom, and smart recovery from the higher bottom cases.
Work it. You’re worth it.
Daniella Young (Knitting Cult Lady) is a cult scholar talks extensively about this as well as other cults. I highly recommend her for more info on this and how terrible these groups are for anyone who is interested.
I’ve followed her for a little bit now. I guess yt could tell I seen a cup of perc coffee or two and showed me her videos about AA. Ill say, she’s not wrong about poor behavior of repected members. She’s missing a lot of context though.
She wants a top down enforcement of policy to root out bad behavior. Completely reasonable in a govt, business, or religion that has leadership that is stable for the most part for years at a time. This is not the case for AA. Most groups that meet on a given day are simply the people in driving range that want to chat and work on themselves a bit in some quick group talk therapy. The membership is informal so as not to put of the reticent. That might sound sus, but these are people that constantly refuse help, easily accessible help sometimes. People change groups, join multiple, join none but attend many, and a manner of things.
Its like asking America as a whole to do better with allowing pdf files to victimize children. Yes, but its not like anyone’s encouraging it… and if anyone is a creep we watch out for it and warn people when necessary. Just like any group of friends in a neighborhood. Which is what we are, imo.