I was a far-right lunatic until about 2009, when I started turning left. I have read many (center-)leftist articles from Jacobin, Common Dreams, The Guardian, and, from Brazil, Carta Capital and IHU (Catholic liberation theology).
Lemmy (despite my suboptimal instance) and communist friends got me interested in actual Marxism, but I have not yet really studied it. So please recommend:
- The best Marxist Lemmy instance for my background.
- Marxist books or videos in approximate reading/watching order. For the next many months (I suspect six months) I will have very little time, though.
Bonus:
- reasonable tolerance of Catholic faith and individual morality
- contextualized on Brazil, Cuba, broader Latin America or China
Background: Brazilian Catholic male autistic ADHD IT analyst with an electronic engineering degree and MsC in computer science. I have a son with my wife. I highly value privacy and software freedom. I read English well, but Spanish quite poorly. Native Portuguese speaker.
EDIT: I got a lemmygrad account. I am still processing the other recommendations.
Welcome! For your first question, Lemmygrad.ml and Hexbear.net are explicitly oriented towards Marxism (Hexbear also has Anarchists and other leftist types, Lemmygrad is Marxist-Leninist). For your second, I actually wrote an introductory reading list you can check out if you want.
Marxist-Lemmyisim.
Way more chill and non-toxic than Reddit’s r/Communism
There are many Brazilian comrades on lemmygrad.ml that could help with materials in Portuguese, and I’m sure the PCB (partido comunista brasileiro) also has a good introductory reading list.
For a shorter english introduction, I maintain this crash course socialism that goes over the basics.
Thank you! This is the original poster, now with a lemmygrad account. I looked at all reading recommendations and I think I will start with your crash course. Your commitment to privacy and software freedom (being a Lemmy dev) are big positive signs to me. The working class cannot organise when Big Brother is always watching and advertisers (including political propagandists like Cambridge Analytica) use AI to individually manipulate us.
No probs! Glad I could help.
This war has many fronts, and one is who owns and controls our social media platforms. US-capitalists own nearly all of the communications platforms worldwide, and use them to advertise to us, sell us pro-US lies, turn us and our data into products, and forward that data to their government to spy on the world. Reddit is (i think) the 5th most popular site worldwide, so this is one small way I can try to help reverse that trend, and allow people to create their own social media outside of US control.
Hi friend!
For what Marxist instance would be best given your background, well there are only two total, to my knowledge, so you could just try out both and see what you like best! They are Hexbear and Lemmygrad. Lemmygrad is smaller but is more focused on Marxism-Leninism in particular. Hexbear has a ML-ancom and everything in between left unity stance and places great emphasis on making the space safe for people of marginalized groups. Lemmy.ml has many Marxists but is not explicitly commie.
For reading recommendations, this can be a difficult question to answer because there are many important texts in the Marxist tradition and some of them, particularly the foundational ones, are dense and challenging to read. I do strongly recommend reading the core works of Marx and Engels, since they define Marxism and later works are based on them. The order in which to read books really depends on how you prefet to read and learn.
I prefer to read from “the beginning” and already knew the relevant philosophical background so I just read Das Kapital right after The Communist Manifesto. But reading Das Kapital takes a long time. Reading groups dedicate months just to Volume 1. If you prefer a faster introduction and summaries, then I recommend Heinrich’s companion text. Heinrich inserts some of his own opinions, but you can balance these out by reading Marxists critical of Heinrich, like Michael Roberts. If you want an even faster and simpler introduction, you can work backwards by reading short overviews from newer texts and blogs and so on and then make sure to try and tackle Capital later. But remember that the farther from the original works you get, the more likely that you will learn something incorrect about them without being in a position to notice it.
Another strategy is to start with Lenin, particularly his own notes on Hegel and Marx, and proceed to Stalin’s overview of Marxism-Leninism, which includes an overview of Marxism. These are much easier to read than the source texts. All of the works so far will have Portuguese translations.
Regarding tolerance of Catholic faith, both instances will likely not care so long as this does not mean contradicting community standards, e.g. a vocal tradcath would contradict the feminist stances of both instances. Both instances have Christian comms, similar to subreddits. Lemmygrad’s all seem to be inactive, though. Hexbear is, generally speaking, against insufferable New Atheist contrarianism (and so many of its original proponents became reactionary).
Regarding having Latin American context, both instances of course have a good amount of comrades from Latin America. I know that Hexbear has an active Latin America comm.
hexbear is kind of general leftism (anarchist, marxist leninist) with a good amount of shitposting, lemmygrad has more staunchly marxist Leninist
lemmygrad has a wiki with all the reading lists this is the absolute beginner
dessaline the creator of lemmy has a bunch of audiobooks and stuff if you prefer that instead
there is probably a brazillian communist discord i can link if you’re interested i think they have a whole section with streamers and eductional stuff. i heard about it through the deprogram podcast
not familiar with that dialect so you will have to navigate it on your own
Hi! This is the OP, now with a lemmygrad account. I thank you for your recommendations but I think the following URL is wrong:
https://hexbear.net/comment/5624975
It is a thread about Android restrictions for banking apps.
hi i do not know why it redirects to that. the url is correct on my end. the post is called “Why are leftist spaces always sabotaging themselves?”
r/communism reading list or ProleWiki reading list. A lot of these books are available in Portuguese on ProleWiki or if not you can go to marxists.org
I think this is a good primer onto what we believe in.
The 3 components of Marxism by Lenin.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/mar/x01.htm
IThe philosophy of Marxism is materialism. Throughout the modern history of Europe, and especially at the end of the eighteenth century in France, where a resolute struggle was conducted against every kind of medieval rubbish, against serfdom in institutions and ideas, materialism has proved to be the only philosophy that is consistent, true to all the teachings of natural science and hostile to superstition, cant and so forth. The enemies of democracy have, therefore, always exerted all their efforts to “refute”, under mine and defame materialism, and have advocated various forms of philosophical idealism, which always, in one way or another, amounts to the defence or support of religion.
Marx and Engels defended philosophical materialism in the most determined manner and repeatedly explained how profoundly erroneous is every deviation from this basis. Their views are most clearly and fully expounded in the works of Engels, Ludwig Feuerbach and Anti-Dühring, which, like the Communist Manifesto, are handbooks for every class-conscious worker.
But Marx did not stop at eighteenth-century materialism: he developed philosophy to a higher level, he enriched it with the achievements of German classical philosophy, especially of Hegel’s system, which in its turn had led to the materialism of Feuerbach. The main achievement was dialectics, i.e., the doctrine of development in its fullest, deepest and most comprehensive form, the doctrine of the relativity of the human knowledge that provides us with a reflection of eternally developing matter. The latest discoveries of natural science—radium, electrons, the transmutation of elements—have been a remarkable confirmation of Marx’s dialectical materialism despite the teachings of the bourgeois philosophers with their “new” reversions to old and decadent idealism.
Marx deepened and developed philosophical materialism to the full, and extended the cognition of nature to include the cognition of human society. His historical materialism was a great achievement in scientific thinking. The chaos and arbitrariness that had previously reigned in views on history and politics were replaced by a strikingly integral and harmonious scientific theory, which shows how, in consequence of the growth of productive forces, out of one system of social life another and higher system develops—how capitalism, for instance, grows out of feudalism.
Just as man’s knowledge reflects nature (i.e., developing matter), which exists independently of him, so man’s social knowledge (i.e., his various views and doctrines—philosophical, religious, political and so forth) reflects the economic system of society. Political institutions are a superstructure on the economic foundation. We see, for example, that the various political forms of the modern European states serve to strengthen the domination of the bourgeoisie over the proletariat.
Marx’s philosophy is a consummate philosophical materialism which has provided mankind, and especially the working class, with powerful instruments of knowledge.
IIHaving recognised that the economic system is the foundation on which the political superstructure is erected, Marx devoted his greatest attention to the study of this economic system. Marx’s principal work, Capital, is devoted to a study of the economic system of modern, i.e., capitalist, society.
Classical political economy, before Marx, evolved in England, the most developed of the capitalist countries. Adam Smith and David Ricardo, by their investigations of the economic system, laid the foundations of the labour theory of value. Marx continued their work; he provided a proof of the theory and developed it consistently. He showed that the value of every commodity is determined by the quantity of socially necessary labour time spent on its production.
Where the bourgeois economists saw a relation between things (the exchange of one commodity for another) Marx revealed a relation between people. The exchange of commodities expresses the connection between individual producers through the market. Money signifies that the connection is becoming closer and closer, inseparably uniting the entire economic life of the individual producers into one whole. Capital signifies a further development of this connection: man’s labour-power becomes a commodity. The wage-worker sells his labour-power to the owner of land, factories and instruments of labour. The worker spends one part of the day covering the cost of maintaining himself and his family (wages), while the other part of the day he works without remuneration, creating for the capitalist surplus-value, the source of profit, the source of the wealth of the capitalist class.
The doctrine of surplus-value is the corner-stone of Marx’s economic theory.
Capital, created by the labour of the worker, crushes the worker, ruining small proprietors and creating an army of unemployed. In industry, the victory of large-scale production is immediately apparent, but the same phenomenon is also to be observed in agriculture, where the superiority of large-scale capitalist agriculture is enhanced, the use of machinery increases and the peasant economy, trapped by money-capital, declines and falls into ruin under the burden of its backward technique. The decline of small-scale production assumes different forms in agriculture, but the decline itself is an indisputable fact.
(Note: Property used to make commodities are called constant capital, and are an intermediate commodity for making direct commodities)
(Note: commodities = partial bit of constant capital + necessary labor {time} (separated between laborer’s wages/variable capital and capitalist profit/surplus value)
By destroying small-scale production, capital leads to an increase in productivity of labour and to the creation of a monopoly position for the associations of big capitalists. Production itself becomes more and more social—hundreds of thousands and millions of workers become bound together in a regular economic organism—but the product of this collective labour is appropriated by a handful of capitalists. Anarchy of production, crises, the furious chase after markets and the insecurity of existence of the mass of the population are intensified.
Expropriation: the seizure of small-scale property, usually to develop a more concentrated, technologically advanced mode of production
By increasing the dependence of the workers on capital, the capitalist system creates the great power of united labour.
(Appropriation: the seizure of surplus value)
Marx traced the development of capitalism from embryonic commodity economy, from simple exchange, to its highest forms, to large-scale production.
And the experience of all capitalist countries, old and new, year by year demonstrates clearly the truth of this Marxian doctrine to increasing numbers of workers.
Capitalism has triumphed all over the world, but this triumph is only the prelude to the triumph of labour over capital.
III When feudalism was overthrown and “free” capitalist society appeared in the world, it at once became apparent that this freedom meant a new system of oppression and exploitation of the working people. Various socialist doctrines immediately emerged as a reflection of and protest against this oppression. Early socialism, however, was utopian socialism. It criticised capitalist society, it condemned and damned it, it dreamed of its destruction, it had visions of a better order and endeavoured to convince the rich of the immorality of exploitation.
But utopian socialism could not indicate the real solution. It could not explain the real nature of wage-slavery under capitalism, it could not reveal the laws of capitalist development, or show what social force is capable of becoming the creator of a new society.
Meanwhile, the stormy revolutions which everywhere in Europe, and especially in France, accompanied the fall of feudalism, of serfdom, more and more clearly revealed the struggle of classes as the basis and the driving force of all development.
Not a single victory of political freedom over the feudal class was won except against desperate resistance. Not a single capitalist country evolved on a more or less free and democratic basis except by a life-and-death struggle between the various classes of capitalist society.
The genius of Marx lies in his having been the first to deduce from this the lesson world history teaches and to apply that lesson consistently. The deduction he made is the doctrine of the class struggle.
People always have been the foolish victims of deception and self-deception in politics, and they always will be until they have learnt to seek out the interests of some class or other behind all moral, religious, political and social phrases, declarations and promises. Champions of reforms and improvements will always be fooled by the defenders of the old order until they realise that every old institution, how ever barbarous and rotten it may appear to be, is kept going by the forces of certain ruling classes. And there is only one way of smashing the resistance of those classes, and that is to find, in the very society which surrounds us, the forces which can—and, owing to their social position, must—constitute the power capable of sweeping away the old and creating the new, and to enlighten and organise those forces for the struggle.
Marx’s philosophical materialism alone has shown the proletariat the way out of the spiritual slavery in which all oppressed classes have hitherto languished. Marx’s economic theory alone has explained the true position of the proletariat in the general system of capitalism.
Besides that, imperialism is not simply “a policy of extending a country’s power and influence through diplomacy or military force.”
It is a system culminating from the growing capitalist mode of production.
Imperialism is the {higher} stage of capitalism by Lenin, defined by
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Dominance of capitalist monopolies in everyday life
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Bank capital (think shareholders and money-lenders) + industrial capital (think factories and mass production ) --> Finance capital, whose surplus value is increasingly dominated by dividends and interest, rather than industrial profit of enterprise.
You might call this rentier capital.
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Export of capital around the world is dominant, rather than export of commodities, in search of new sources of surplus value
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International capitalist monopolies are established
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Territorial division and redivision of the colonized world, on the basis of monopoly capitalism. (even then, under neo-colonialism, you don’t need to even occupy; you just have to exert economic and military dominance/hegemony on the ‘ex-colonies’)
Thus, it is important to be anti-imperialist, in the sense of Lenin.
If ye wanted a book recommendation intro, here’s one by Cowbee
https://lemmy.ml/post/22417306
There’s also this one.
Basic Marxism-Leninism study plan
This is the Marxism-Leninism “basic study plan” of the Anti-Imperialism Movement (Movimiento Anti-Imperialista or MAI). I think this is a very decent set of texts to read, so I’ve translated the original list and added links to all English and free-to-read versions available online. Since people very often ask for this kind of thing I hope some of you will find it useful.
You can find these at marxists.org
Introduction Lenin. The three sources and three component parts of Marxism
Marx, Engels. Manifesto of the Communist Party
Historical Materialism
Marx, Engels. The German Ideology, chapter 1
Scientific Socialism
Engels. Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
Lenin. Texts against revisionism and opportunism:
The historical destiny of the doctrine of Karl Marx
Opportunism and the collapse of the Second International
The collapse of the Second International
Imperialism and the split in Socialism
Certain features of the historical development of Marxism
Lenin. Left-wing Communism: and infantile disorder
Engels. Anti-Dühring, part III: Socialism
Stalin. The foundations of Leninism
Philosophy
Engels. Anti-Dühring, part I: Philosophy
Engels. Ludwig Feuerbach and the end of classical German philosophy
Political Economy
Marx. Wages, price and profit (Ouais)
Engels. Anti-Dühring, part II: Political Economy
Marx. Capital Volume I (This is a big one; oof)
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Read The Principles of Communism and Socialism: Utopian and Scientific by Friedrich Engels. People usually recommend The Communist Manifesto as an introduction, but in my honest opinion it can be skipped entirely. (These can all be read for free on marxists.org, and there might even be Portugese translations on there)
Also, the youtube channel Socialism For All has a lot of audiobooks of Marxist texts, although they are in English.
The podcast Revolutionary Left Radio is worth checking out.
Marxist-Leninist’s (ML) like to cite “On Authority”. Here’s an anarchist view: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/punkerslut-on-authority-a-response-to-friedrich-engels
I don’t really think this is a productive text to link. It’s littered with historical inaccuracies regarding the efficiency and working class upliftment that happened and continue to happen in AES states (which are indeed not magical wonderlands, but really existing Socialism nonetheless) such as the false claim that Chinese workers cannot strike. Furthermore, the author appears to be making a hit piece, rather than engaging with the text to see if there’s any value to it, and in this process there are several errors. Honestly, I think it ends up being insulting to Anarchists more than Marxists, and I’ll get back when I wrap up.
In the first section, the author describes a production process requiring no authority, just mutual consent. There are a number of issues here. The first, it assumes a lack of consent in a Marxist system. The second, it overly simplifies production. When you create a phone, for example, there are huge supply chains at scales unimaginable by any given worker, highly trained engineers and technicians to design and maintain both the machinery and the phones themselves, armies of safety and quality workers that ensure the conditions are not toxic and that the phones themselves are working and not dangerous, production managers who run the assembly lines, and educational bodies that train the workers, including the engineers. These educational bodies need methods of accountability at large so they don’t teach false physics, like V=I/R instead of V=IR.
Engels argument is that production needs “authority.” This is correct, no matter how you slice it, you must restrict freedom to misdesign, freedom to spill sewage into the drinking water, freedom to slack on maintenance, freedom to not do lock out tag out on machinery during maintenance. Engels also is making the argument that this is consensual to have a functioning society of mass cooperation and complex industry, but the Author tries to pretend it isn’t and that only “voluntary cooperation” is valid. The Author misframes Engels and in the process slanders Anarchists who understand that some hierarchy is necessary and just! The only other conclusion is that Anarchism must be of a return to earlier production methods where complex industry no longer exists, but such an aim would result in the resurgance of Capitalism.
This strategy is the same for the whole article, misframe Engels point that “authoritarian” is nonsense as everyone needs some level of exertion of authority (such as to prevent a nuclear power plant from exploding), and then pretend Anarchists want a Utopia where everyone magically decides to just voluntarily arrange themselves in complex production while denouncing “authority” and that nobody would ever disagree with this. It slanders the Anarchists I know are more reasonable than this, and it misframes Engels entirely.
I could go on, but I think I made my point.
I appreciate your points. I know we are of conflicting persuasions and finding ML’s that engage outside their echo chambers is difficult. Driving our convictions is the common goal of communism: a stateless, moneyless, classless society,
For complex production any necessary hierarchies should be managed by the workers and not a vertical power structure like a party. Assuming horizontal power structures are incapable of managing complex production seems unjustified. Workers produce, masters exploit. Socialism should be ordered from the bottom up to prevent exploitation by masters. Any necessary hierarchy to ensure communication happens between autonomous workers should be accountable from the bottom. A QA worker can let others know there are issues without a boss.
Engel’s argues tools have authority over workers, thereby authority is unavoidable. The author of the linked essay would thereby push that to, “I need to breathe; Engel’s says authority” which may be hyperbole. If I constrain someone’s airway, they no longer have “power to” breathe and I have “power over” their ability to breathe. Authority thereby cannot be defined as natural like breathing or tool use. Authority instead is a constraint on “power to” imparted by another with “power over”. I do not need a boss to tell me when to breathe.
For what it’s worth, I used to be an Anarchist, so it’s easier for me to see why Anarchists think the way they do and point out misconceptions about Marxism I had before really diving into theory. I hope you’ll see that this is out of a place of trying to correct misconceptions, and not some smug “I’ve read more than you so my power level is higher” nonsense. Additionally, the jab at MLs is unnecessary in my opinion, and inaccurate.
First, Communism. Marxists and Anarchists have a fundamentally different view of what the State is, and therefore what Communism looks like. For Marxists, the State is an instrument of class oppression, while for Anarchists its a monopoly on violence and a tool of hierarchy. The conclusions are that Marxists seek a global Socialist republic with full public ownership and central planning, and Anarchists seek a horizontal, decentralized network of communes. This fundamental difference in class analysis drives the real material differences between Marxism and Anarchism, so when you say we want the same thing, that’s not accurate, and makes Marxism seem nonsensical (why would a system trying to reach horizontal communes work through central planning and public ownership if only to dissolve itself later). If you have an inaccurate view of Marxism, Anarchism seems like a much better way to reach what this faux-Marxism seeks, but that’s all it is, faux-Marxism.
Furthermore, the Marxist argument against such a commune-focused system is that such a system would have fundamental inequality in rates of progression, which would work to reintroduce Private Property and thus Capitalism over time (elaborated on in Anti-Duhring).
For your second point, the role of a Party and its position within a society. This is… confused on your part. A party can be better described as “top-down, from the bottom-up.” When you say that the party is “master,” this is just wrong. Parties rely on democratic infrastructure, like Democratic Centralism, and an adherance to the Mass Line. Much of org theory is based on effectiveness and maintaining connection to the masses, simplifying it as an “exploitative master” is false thinking.
The fact that you concede that some hierarchy is necessary (say, the QA worker should be able to halt production and stop unqualified products from shipping even against democratic consensus) means you can understand how direction can be necessary. A QA worker informing others that the products are dangerous, without authority, can be ignored entirely, you assume that everyone without fail will “do the right thing.” Moreover, by stating that this hierarchy must be accountable from the bottom-up, you agree with Marxist-Leninists. I think if you read The State and Revolution, you’d fundamentally agree with Lenin the whole way through. The major difference is largely language. To quote Engels,
But the necessity of authority, and of imperious authority at that, will nowhere be found more evident than on board a ship on the high seas. There, in time of danger, the lives of all depend on the instantaneous and absolute obedience of all to the will of one.
When I submitted arguments like these to the most rabid anti-authoritarians, the only answer they were able to give me was the following: Yes, that’s true, but there it is not the case of authority which we confer on our delegates, but of a commission entrusted! These gentlemen think that when they have changed the names of things they have changed the things themselves. This is how these profound thinkers mock at the whole world.
The author has clear intent to discredit Engels, not to discern if he may have a point or not, leading to absurdity like the breathing comparison. You don’t need a manager or director to tell you to breathe, but you need one to tell you that the latent chemicals within the products you are producing are toxic, as found by the QA worker, and production and shipping are to cease immediately, and to deny the necessity of this authority is to place the trust and safety of humanity purely in the good will of unaccountable individuals.
Overall, I hope you can walk away with a bit of a better understanding of what Marxists even want in the first place. I’d ask you how Anarchists would produce a smartphone, and how you think Marxists would produce a smartphone, and to see where the legitimate differences lie, not just language.
Thank you for the sincere response. Your knowledge of ML and anarchist thought is appreciated. You make some great points. Specifically the acknowledgment that communism is different for ML’s and anarchist. I appreciate your insight.
I will begin with the production of a smartphone. The smartphone, in its current form, is an innovation of capitalism. We can both conceive a ML or anarchist smartphone. Given I am an engineer, I will speak to the engineering process. I live under capitalism, so can provide non-idealist insight there. I will follow that with ML and then anarchist production.
Regardless of political system the engineers get an initial set of requirements from somewhere. The initial requirements inform the engineers regarding what needs to be done. Prototypes are created. Tests verify met requirements. Shortening the user feedback loop allows better iterations since the initial requirements likely do not match end product requirements.
Under capitalism, the capitalist has minions that decide what needs to be built based on the profit motive. Engineers building prototypes receive requirements from their direct manager, the capitalist and consumers. The capitalist has outsized say in the iteration process since engineers that do not bend to the whims of the capitalist no longer work as an engineer.
Under Marxist-Leninism, party leadership decides what to needs to be built based on information from their subordinates. Engineers building prototypes receive requirements from their direct manager and party leadership. Party leadership has outsized say in the iteration process since engineers that do not bend to the whims of party leadership no longer work as an engineer.
Under anarchism, the commune decides what needs to be built based on information from consensus. Engineers building prototypes receive requirements from the community. The community sways the iteration process since engineers that fail to move their community forward no longer work as engineers.
Perhaps my arguments are misconceptions. My experience with engineering has been shortening the iteration time by letting the user sway requirements, without a master with outsized power, allows products to meet the needs of the user. Current engineering practices are dominated by capitalist. The profit motive allegedly informs their decisions, but Smith’s “invisible hand” is about as magic as Engel’s “withering away of the state”. A world where ML or anarchist engineering practices, not influenced by the profit motive or capitalist, would be riveting.
Outside of engineering, we have raw materials, transportation, manufacturing and distribution. I know less about these areas since I do not work in them.
If I believe what I have read, raw materials like cobalt are being mined for dominating hierarchies like corporations by independent contractors in exploited countries.
Transportation is being done by independent contractors on behalf of dominating hierarchies. Transport of raw materials seems decentralized. I am confounded why transport differs from distribution in terms of centralization under capitalism.
Manufacturing is capital intensive and tends to be centralized for complex production since not everyone has a clean room at home. Less complex production seems to follow the independent contractor model since most people can sew. I imagine this is a difference in the cost of capital.
Distribution is mostly centralized and seems capital intensive with fleet maintenance. I know there have been attempts to decentralize distribution similar to how Uber decentralized taxi services.
In closing, I would like to see engineering that benefits communities. I would like to see sharing of ideas and collaboration between communes. The assumption is that humans are social and helpful. When we assume humans are selfish and not social, then individual autonomy should be squashed by hierarchical authority.
I think there was a misconception. The QA worker can say things are bad. The other workers would then build consensus on next steps. The QA worker still needs to build consensus with relevant people, but can act if immediate action is required. Immediate mitigating action like stopping someone from walking into a busy street is a required imposition of hierarchy.
Wow, that was long. I probably have many misconceptions of ML ideas.
How do you feel about the name State Capitalism? I implied it in the replacement of capitalist with party leadership.
How do ensure those with “power over” subordinates do not abuse their subordinates “power to” do something? Under anarchism, the QA worker may be unreliable and the community can build consensus to not listen to concerns.
How is ML different from other domination heirarchies like feudalism, oligarchy and monarchy? My understanding is Stalin was God-King due to the heirarchy he commanded as General Secretary. Benevolent, omnipotent kings are a great form of government until you get a Nero.
How can we prevent Great Leap Forward’s fulfillment of the Peter Principle, where individuals in heirarchies rise to the level of their incompetence? This is not unique to ML. Heirarchies can’t promote productive workers. Nothing would get done.
I will have to re-read Lenin’s “State and Revolution”. I ended up engaging with Kropotkin, Bakunin, Proudhon and Goldman more than Lenin or Mao. My readings may have been cursory.
Alright, thanks for responding! There are a bunch of misconceptions here, like I thought there would be, but I assume you already knew that due to your admission as such, and the purpose is to rectify those.
First, I won’t really correct your Capitalist explanation, we both are familiar with Capitalism enough to know what it looks like.
Second, Marxism-Leninism. In all AES countries, it is not “party leadership” that dictates production, just like Joe Biden doesn’t do any of the planning involved with the Post Office. “Party Leadership” tends to deal with overarching issues, foreign policy, and more. Industrial planning is done by Economic Planners, much like how you can get a job as a City Planner or Civil Engineer in the US. Engineers are subservient to their managers, much like in Capitalism, only the goal isn’t profit but fulfillment of Use-Value. The importance of this is that administrative roles are a necessity for large, mass-scale complex production.
The education of the Engineer was provided by the government, with standards set in place at the government level by the Education Administration (or equivalent government body). These don’t need to be party members, just regular people. The purpose of the party is to be made up of the most politically educated of the working class, unlike in Capitalism where party members are subservient to Capital. The Party is made up of the working class and is voluntary to join, and can purge opportunists and spies who seek to sabotage the Socialist system.
In Anarchism, I believe you’re assuming too many things. Who decides “consensus?” Is every commodity at the whim of direct vote? Or do you have elected delegates, trusted to handle economic planning? If the former, how would we trust these people to not be under-planning or over-planning, if the latter, what’s the difference from the government in Marxism-Leninism beyond name? Furthermore, where do educational standards come from for Engineers? Best practice? Is everything equally decided by everyone? If you don’t formalize a body to exert some kind of authority to prevent malpractice, then you have malpractice. If you do, you agree with the Marxist-Leninists, your only objection being labeling this formalized group a “party” rather than a “committee,” as though language changes form.
For the QA worker to have any genuine authority, it needs to be backed, and this backing cannot be purely voluntary or else it isn’t actually authority, and can be ignored freely. Moreover, if you are talking smartphones, such a production process can involve many thousands of people, does everyone need to be involved over every QA issue, or do we make the concession that production would grind to a halt in a day if we did that and instead administration should be embraced?
Quick diversion to the Withering of the State: it isn’t magic at all, rather, for Marxists the State is the instruments within government that uphold class distinctions, like Private Property. Upon making all property Public, there are no classes, so there isn’t a need for private property rigjts, hence the “withering away.” Government and administration remain, and things like the police change more to be social workers and armies are superfluous as Communism is global. That’s the “withering away” of the State for Marxists.
Alright, onto your questions.
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“State Capitalism” can best be used to describe the NEP, not Socialism in general. Parties are not classes, and central planning isn’t done for the profit of party members. This is a confused understanding of Marxism.
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Democratic Centralism and the Mass Line are core concepts to ML structure, along with Recall Elections in the case of removing opportunists.
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Socialism is fundamentally different from feudalism and Capitalism because the basis is on a fully Publicly Owned economy. Just like managers are not a separate class, neither are administrators and officials, production doesn’t all funnel into their pockets but is directed for the fulfilment of the needs of society. There’s a lot of literature on the economies of AES countries I can link if you want. These aren’t “benevolent kings,” they can be opposed (and frequently were).
As for Stalin, there’s historical record of him attempting to resign no fewer than 4 times, he wasn’t unopposable and wasn’t a God-King. He certainly wasn’t a perfect man either, but he was elected and frequently opposed through the institutions of the Soviet Union.
- Administration is a separate skill from manufacturing. I’m not sure what your point is here, most Socialist democratic structures work like building blocks, a local council elects a representative for a regional council, then an area council from them, national, international, etc, with as many and as few rungs as needed.
Does that answer your questions?
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Liberation theology is wonderful and very specific to Latin America. Marx and the Bible is a great book. It was originally written in Spanish and took a while to be published in English; surely there is a Portuguese edition somewhere. Edit: Gutierrez’s Theology of Liberation is also 🔥
As socialist as liberation theology may (or may not) be, theologies are idealist, not materialist, and therefore not Marxist.
Hi. This is me (the original poster) on my new Lemmygrad account. I thank you for providing your viewpoint. However I still believe liberation theology is useful at least for:
- Inspiring my individual and familiar decisions
- Communicating with fellow Christians. A significant majority of Brazil is Christian, especially the workers.
That’s fine. I’m not interested in crushing liberation theology. I’m only pointing out that Marxism is an atheistic school of thought. For an easily digestible deep dive I would suggest Elementary principles of philosophy.
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Counter argument.
All political theory is a waste of time.
The only thing that matters is votes and winning elections.
Study the real candidates and their current policies. Work for the ones who will actually help the people.
Trying to split the hair of ‘Marxist/Socialist/Social Democrat’ doesn’t get anyone elected.
mho
I don’t really think this is a counter-argument, but a counter-thesis. When we look historically, the Russian “Socialist Revolutionaries” once celebrated an “end to theory.” They believed that getting into the weeds on which strategy was correct and which direction to work towards fundamentally weakened the party. The Bolsheviks, on the other hand, maintained that theory was strictly necessary, Lenin’s famous line going “without revolutionary theory, there can be no revolutionary practice.” Today, we can easily see that the SRs were wrong, and the Bolsheviks were correct, and successfully their methods of analysis and revolution were applied elsewhere, like China and Cuba.
I addressed this first, because your core crux, that “only voting matters,” is something every Marxist would reject. You rejected theory while quietly supporting your own, perhaps unknowingly, and this ends up working against your entire thesis. Marxists maintain that Revolution is necessary, because we have watched the success of Revolution and the failure of Reform through the 20th and 21st centuries.
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I (the OP) reply with from old lemmy.eco.br account because I don’t see these comments from my new lemmygrad account.
You mention Brazil, so I have to tell of our recent history.
We elected leftist president João Goulart in the early 1960s. When he tried to enact reforms, a coalition of businessmen, Catholic theocrats and treasonous generals overthrew democracy in a USA-backed coup. The dictatorship lasted 21 years.
In 2002 we managed to elect president Lula da Silva, an intelligent working class moderate leftist. However, he bet on class conciliation (not class struggle). To be elected and then to govern, he formed a broad political alliance and made big concessions to the right. By 2016 there was a huge effort to overthrow his sucessor President Dilma (leftist woman economist, former guerrilla). Biased judges convicted Lula in later broadly discredited trials. Corporate media harshly campaigned against the Workers Party (PT). Corrupt hipocrites in Congress worked hard to worsen our economy, which was in a big fiscal crisis. For example, they established full pensions for women at the age of 52 and men at the age of 57, for those with documented jobs since the age of 18, in an old aging population. Politically motivated corruption trials dismantled some of our best companies. They broke the economy, blamed Dilma, then impeached her on made up charges. When casting his vote for impeachment, congressman Jair Bolsonaro praised Ulstra, the Army Colonel who had tortured Dilma decades earlier when she was captured by the dictatorship. Now in power, those same right-wing hipocrites pushed for men and women to only retire at the age of 65 – 13 more years (for women) than the previous year when they were opposing Dilma. They settled for 62 for women, 65 for men, still far less “generous” than they were in Dilma’s opposition.
Before the next election, Lula, the most popular candidate, was imprisioned and then the “winner” was obscurantist far-right Bolsonaro, a loud fan of the military dictatorship. Bolsonaro made a very bad administration, lost the following election, then planned and put in motion another military coup involving the assassination or “neutralization” of the elected President, Vice President and a Supreme Court justice. We just barely escaped it, and Lula still has to fight an overwhelmingly right wing media oligopoly, far-right disinformation in the digital platform oligopoly, a terrible right-wing Congress, and impeachment threats. While far better than Bolsonaro, in this scenario Lula accomplishes far less than the people need. He cannot even stop the assassination of indigenous and land reform activists, let alone enact the long dreamed properly progressive taxation and democratization of the media (including digital platforms) oligopolies.
In Brazilian history, the parasites in the economic elite concede nothing without a fight.
I’ll remove my original commnet. However, I still believe that the US is much closer to the next election than it is to a revolution, unless you count a right wing coup as a 'revolution.
Elections in Brazil and America will never bring about Socialism, though. Fuethermore, Lenin was not in Russia, correct, but the Bolsheviks had been working towards building up the Soviet System via Dual Power that led to successful revolution, and Lenin had played a major part in that. Moreover, it was the propagandizing and organizing of the Working Class that led to an actual revolution, which theory played an instrumental part in.
The New Deal was brought about by elections, as were the systems in places like Sweden.
The New Deal was brought about during a time of mass poverty in the context of the rising Soviet Union in order to prevent a similar revolution, the fall of the latter has resulted in a thorough destruction of the former. Same with Sweden, where disparity is rising and safety nets are crumbling. Further, Sweden depends on Imperialism to fund itself.
It also was a response to mass protests and strikes that militant labor movement was able to organize.
Yep! I don’t think I said that outright, but the revolutionary pressure was there internally as well.
Neither of you points disproves the fact that the system improved due to democratic change without a revolution.
Like I said, the election will probably come before the revolution.
The system temporarily improved because there was a risk of revolution internally and a successful revolution externally. Without both, concessions don’t come. Moreover, justifying Imperialism, ie vicious exploitation of the Global South, is monstrous.
Welfare state / new deal policies will always be precarious, because they leave things as they are: with capitalists in control of the economy and thus the political system.
Not only that, but many of these global north welfare states, are funded via imperialism (usually with a tax on imports of goods produced by super-exploited workers in the global south), which means these social services are just being carried on the backs of the global poor. Just look at where H&M has most of their production facilities for example. Poorer capitalist countries (which are the vast majority of countries), aren’t able to fund much if any social services in that same way.
Some links:
Nothing there refutes the fact that, in the US, we’re going to have an election before we have a revolution.
Also, if there is a revolution in the US, companies like Blackwater [or whatever name they have this week] are much better prepared to take over than the Socialists. It would be like when the Shah fell in Iran and the religious zealots took over.
Cowbee (auth, btw, jsyk) has an intro reading list: https://lemmy.ml/post/22417306
Don’t know what you mean by “auth,” it’s pretty standard Marxism, but thanks for linking it!
I was describing your ideology more so than your reading list, in case that wasn’t clear. Iirc though, you’ve said something along the lines of not feeling “authoritarian” is an appropriate political descriptor at all
My ideology is Marxist-Leninist, the list I made reflects that. I agree with Engels with respect to “authoritarianism” as a concept, elaborated on in On Authority. Generally, it isn’t a useful descriptor for many things, or rather it is so overused and under-examined that it ends up simplifying concepts to the point that they become more confusing.
Liberty is the iron fist of the invisible hand, and authoritarianism is the tyranny of the wage-slave majority.
I translated the communist manifesto into a rap for people who want a quick intro https://youtu.be/0Rw0QvEjwuQ
I know “real” Marxists shit on it because it’s not 7000 pages of letters to local parties in Munich, but Mao’s Little Red Book literally exists as an entry point for people of various cultural and education backgrounds who don’t want to PhD Marx…
I haven’t seen any Marxists shit on it myself. In fact it’s available on ProleWiki.
I find 99% of why the left fails is self policing on bullshit that doesn’t matter while we’re dead on a global political level as China is just ethnofascist at this point (cue the CCP downvoters and haters) and Cuba and Venezuela are about to collapse after decades of US sanctions and the DNC is now the Cheney conservative party. Meanwhile the right grows.
I find 99% of why the left fails is self policing on bullshit that doesn’t matter
Mostly we fail because we live in the imperial core, and we have been suppressed, purged, and even assassinated by it for over a century.
China is just ethnofascist at this point (cue the CCP downvoters and haters)
Ask and you shall receive. You’ve been taken in by your own country’s Cold War II propaganda. Previously, previously, previously.
Yes, as a lower class Uighur, my lived experience is CCP good… If you’re reskinning mosques as pagodas, you’re the oppressor as surely as the Jews in Israel, granted via the soft bigotry of low expectations, I will give the CCP credit for being less abjectly inhuman than the LOW bar Israel sets, but camps are camps and making the third amendment relevant is a thing that ONLY exists at scale in Uighur China, where the one big family bed has an assigned state bureaucrat who sleeps with your family
[Edit: since the CCP can do no wrong set are VERY slow, let me clarify, I am NOT literally a lower class Uyghur in China – I have internet and apparently no CCP handler-- you fucking dumbasses. I am literally shocked that you people are this dumb. it’s honestly impressive.]
LOL, making the Third Amendment to the Constitution of the USA relevant?!? What the fuck are you on? You’re a lower class Uighur with lived experience of the CPC but you view the world through the lens of the American Constitution as it was ratified in the late 1700s?
Get bent.
Ethnofascist? JFC.
Don’t listen to this person. You can trust me, I’m actually a commune of 13 Uyghurs that writes like a Redditor and parrots US propaganda right down to its terminology. Ask me about lived experience.
where the one big family bed has an assigned state bureaucrat who sleeps with your family
Do you have actual evidence, or are you accepting the testimonials of CIA-backed radical fundamentalist Islamist Uyghurs? Previously.
So your claim is no Chinese bureaucrats ever slept in Uighur beds, embedded with them?
So your claim is no Chinese bureaucrats ever slept in Uighur beds, embedded with them?
No, my claim is: what are you even talking about, and where is your evidence? Is “Chinese bureaucrats sleeping in beds” a metaphor for something, or are you talking about literal beds? What a bizarre thing to say.
Edit to add: This is what you take at face value? https://www.vice.com/en/article/male-chinese-officials-monitoring-uighur-women-sleeping-same-bed/
A cadre from the ruling Communist Party in Kashgar, Xinjiang, who wished to stay anonymous, told RFA that between 70 and 80 families in his township were put through the program.
You know what Radio Free Asia is, right?
Please consider developing some real media literacy. Previously.
Yes, as a lower class Uighur, my lived experience is CCP good
Do you often pretend to be someone you’re not online? Is that why do you delete all of your posts & comments that are more than a week old? Curiouser and curiouser…