is that why JESEN was telling people to not leave him.
Chinese companies are heavily incentivized to use Chinese chips instead of American since Trump blocked trade with China.
China used to parallel import the chips they needed, and even repackage them with more onboard RAM, making more powerful Nvidia solutions available in China than in the rest of the world.
But Trumps behavior towards China made the Chinese government decide to limit the use of American technologies for AI.
There was a point where Nvidia exports to China was basically at a standstill, because China forbade the purchase of a new cut down Nvidia chip made for the Chinese market to circumvent American trade restrictions.China is building their own complete stack now, replacing everything with Chinese technologies, right from the AI chips to the entire AI software framework.
So not only does Nvidia and other American companies lose hardware sales, the entire stack will be threatened with a Chinese alternative, that will likely compete with American options on the international market in the future. If Cuda loses its current dominance, it will be easier for competitors to take marketshare from Nvidia.
Hopefully this will be good for consumers worldwide.
Been using Qwen 3.x for a while now for local LLM with search capability. The 3.5 and 3.6 ones are great and run very fast.
Qwen 3.6 is already out? Damn, I swear I switched to 3.5 not even a month ago.
Qwen is already the standard for actual pros as far as I can tell.
It’s only the standard for people who self host their llms and don’t have $500k to throw at hardware for GLM-5.1 or similar models.
I have qwen3.6:27b on my local hardware and it’s way better than I expected. I’m excited for the rest of the 3.6 line as it comes out, if they can keep up that quality.
This story is also a nothing burger. Generally, yes, Nvidia will suffer once chinas stack catches up (soon). By then whatever bubble we are in will have normalized one way or the other.
In terms of actually deploying this model, it doesn’t matter what hardware you’re using. VLLM supports almost everything with SIMD-type hardware instructions.
More competition will make everyone happy except Nvidia shareholders.
Hopefully this will be good for consumers worldwide.
Until America decides to tariff anyone using Chinese technology.
USA is already losing the tariff war as it undermines the American economy, and hasn’t helped their trade deficits much.
When EU finally decides to put tariffs on American services, because USA continue with their shenanigans, then USA will have a trade deficit for real.
Because the trade deficit on goods is vastly outweighed by the surplus on services.
Even if they have a deficit, it is basically free, because they can pay for it with dollars they print themselves, because the USD is the global reserve currency.
But Trump is ruining that too, since “liberation day” where Trump introduced his tariffs, the use of the USD as a global reserve currency has dropped, some claim by up to 30%All USA is doing is undermine the power they used to have. Everybody threatened by USA are in talks with each other to increase cooperation.
EU, Canada, Australia, UK, Japan, are making deals to cooperate around USA including on military.
The Gulf countries are now negotiating with China on economy, which will potentially be the end of the petro dollar. And they are looking to Europe especially Ukraine for defense equipment to replace American equipment.
South American countries have been working with China for years, and USA subsidizing Argentina will not change that.USA is making themselves irrelevant, the Iran war has shown their military is a paper tiger, that cannot protect their allies, and they are pulling key defense equipment out of Japan and South Korea to aid in the Iran war. Making all allies unsure of the value of cooperating with USA. Japan participating in the EU SAFE program is an extremely clear indicator of that.
So whatever USA decides, will have very little bearing on the rest of the world. Because for USA, the train has already left the station, the ship has sailed. The world has lost patience with USA, and are now only idling in their relations with USA, while they all seek to strengthen other relations, for both financial stability and military safety.
It’ll be good for consumers worldwide. America is not the whole world.
I, for example, am in Canada. We’ve established a bunch of very nice trade deals with China recently, we’re going to end up with access to a bunch of Chinese products that Americans can’t get due to their self-imposed trade war with China.
funny how the news stop talking about the tariffs when it was still going in the us, im guessing continually reporting about trumps tariffs is actually go to hurt the republican plebs and companies. and i notice alot of products are more expensive or stopped being offered online shopping.
I think they mean that the US would put trade pressure on countries doing any tech trade with China, not specifically preventing it punishing American companies from using Chinese chips.
Unfortunately the United States is still a big economy regardless of their politics and Manny is right that the US would throw their weight behind anti China policies to the detriment of other nations.
How successful such a move would be is up to debate.
The US is already trying to throw its economic weight around bullying Canada, and we’ve already settled in to an effective economic defensive posture. Those trade deals with China are actually part of it, previously we were supporting various American initiatives to tariff China but the Americans tore up a bunch of agreements with us so we responded in kind. It’s unfortunate but they started it and we’re prepared to hold our own.
its what putin wants to isolate and weaken the US,.
The Americans are doing it all on their own. The russians are just trying to capitalize where they can.
Sad thing is that it is extremely unlikely that the US will be able to implement any kind of reforms around crime, corruption, judicial independence, restrictions on suffrage.
Luckily it seems to be making Europe and Canada stronger as well. Putin can weaken the US all he wants, but as long as Europe and Canada are not just standing around with their hands in their pockets, doing nothing, it wont benefit russia too much.
America decides to tariff anyone using Chinese technology
America already decides to tariff countries regardless of what they’re doing
specific on tech, remember huwei phones it was all the rage as alternative to google and iphones, and samsungs. and then the compares got scared and lobbied for thier bans.
US tariffs hold no power anymore these days.
What’s left unsaid is the software architecture is extremely interesting, and efficient.
Ironically, the Nvidia embargo was the best thing to ever happen to the Chinese labs (which Nvidia tried to tell the US govt). It forced them to get thrifty, unlike US labs which (allegedly) fill some GPU farms with busywork for the appearance of high utilization.
You can run it on CPU alone. Not surprising they’re building their own AI ecosystem
I mean, sure. You could also run it by drawing marks in sand. It doesn’t make any sense to do either, though.
It’s still matrix multiplication. Running it on a general purpose CPU is inefficient.
Not at scale. Even on the new architecture, one really needs some kind of accelerator to make it economical for servers.
Bitnet-like models might change the calculus, but no major trainer had tried that yet.
Even with a bitnet, it’s almost definitely better to train on a high precision float then refine down to bits.
I would expect bitnet to require more layers for equivalent quality too.
I just meant for mass inference serving.
Yeah, I haven’t seen much in the way of bitnet training savings yet, like regular old QAT. It does appear that Deepseek is finetuning their MoEs in a 4-bit format now, though.
Yes, you can run it at scale. Which is why it uses Huawei hardware.
You can run it on anything, scaled or not
Just not power/cost efficiently on CPU only, is what I meant. CPUs don’t have the compute for batching (running generation requests in parallel). You need an accelerator, like Huawei’s, to be economical.
It’s fine for local inference, of course.
A whole ecosystem that can run on any hardware, efficiently or not, is a whole ecosystem developed for the Chinese market
Nope! You don’t know what you’re talking about. At all. But you can have fun running a 1.6 trillion parameter model on CPU at basically 0 tokens per second at scale, MoE or not.
You’ve proved my point that you don’t know what you’re talking about by blindly linking to the git repo. Couldn’t find any source that supports your claim? I wonder why.
Sure you can serve one request at a time to one patient user at a slow token per second rate, which makes running locally viable, but there is no RAM that has the bandwidth to run this model at scale. Even flash would be incredibly slow on CPU with multiple requests. You’d need the high bandwidth of VRAM and to run across multiple GPUs in a scalable way, it requires extremely high bandwidth interconnects between GPUs.
Thank you for proving my point. It can be run on a cpu
“It’s slow, it’s inefficient” it still runs
It’s a foundational model just like R1 was.
Yes, you can run it at scale.
at scale
Shift those goalposts! We went from “at scale” to “it still runs”
the only thing deepseek is really good for is to fuck over NVIDIA and chat gpt or American ai in general because deep seek is bast on chat gpt after all anything that brakes this monopoly is good and anything associated with it like ram.
its probably costing as much and polluting as much as a datacenter from the us is doing.
Sad trombone.
