Marxist-Leninist ideology explicitly calls for the dictatorship of the proletariat. I wouldn’t want it either, but this is basically like going to a religious forum and advocating atheism (i.e. pointless).
You don’t seem to understand what Marx means by dictatorship of the proletariat. His idea of implementation of the dictatorship of the proletariat was the Paris Commune, which had universal suffrage, elected and immediately recallable delegates (a better and more democratic concept that the political clownshow we have in parliamentary democracy). I suggest reading past the name of the concept before talking nonsense.
Marxism is not the same as Marxism-Leninism. Marx might have had Paris commune as his idea of dictatorship of the proletariat, though it was all theoretical. Lenin’s take was the first implementation of the idea which was way more hardline (Red Terror) as seen in incidents like the purge of the Left SRs.
Whether Lenin’s actions were justified it’s a different matter (and tankies will certainly say they were) but ironically Tankies typically won’t dispute that Lenin was dictatorial. Rather, often they will point to talking points taken out of What is to be done? to justify why those actions were needed (i.e. the official CPSU party line).
You have a misunderstanding. Your first comment stated that Marxism-Leninism calls for a DotP. When confronted with Marx’s position, you said that ML and Marxism are not the same, indicating you believe that Marxism doesn’t [edit. I said does instead of doesn’t] call for a DotP. This is incorrect. Marx coined the term in 1850 when he was writing about the French Revolution.
Yes, Lenin produced the first functioning theory of revolution and found himself in the conditions for revolution to actually occur. And what he found was that the revolution was immediately under siege from the West (even the US invaded) and that the previous power structure was willing to engage in terror campaigns to destroy the revolution. This has been demonstrated to be the way revolutions always go, and in fact is how prior revolutions, like the French and the American revolutions went, and the Haitian revolution if you want a non-white example.
What I did that was new was to prove: (1) that the existence of classes is only bound up with particular historical phases in the development of production (historische Entwicklungsphasen der Production), (2) that the class struggle necessarily leads to the dictatorship of the proletariat,[1] (3) that this dictatorship itself only constitutes the transition to the abolition of all classes and to a classless society .
And of course so was Lenin, decrying “Bernsteinism”:
Denied was the fact of growing impoverishment, the process of proletarisation, and the intensification of capitalist contradictions; the very concept, “ultimate aim”, was declared to be unsound, and the idea of the dictatorship of the proletariat was completely rejected. Denied was the antithesis in principle between liberalism and socialism. Denied was the theory of the class struggle, on the alleged grounds that it could not be applied to a strictly democratic society governed according to the will of the majority, etc.
I don’t even get ypur objection here. Are you implying Marx did not call for DOTP or are you claiming I wasn’t sufficiently clear about saying Marx also called for DOTP? My point was that both call for DOTP but Lenin’s version of it was the only one that was realized, that it turned out to be rather brutal, and that tankies (like you just did!) don’t even distance themselves from it but embrace it. Which was the entire point in the OP.
Sorry. I made a typo and have just corrected it. Yes, it looked like you were saying that only MLism called for a DotP.
The idea that implementing a DotP was brutal is a narrative. Brutal compared to what, is the question. Because what all of those revolutions have in common is that the ruling class was already extremely brutal. The DotP reversed the brutality and made it very obvious to people because it wasn’t interested in masking it. But the reality is that all the DotPs saved more people than it killed.
Except for the fact that you don’t have to “go” anywhere. You just have to not notice a domain name. I think it’s admirable for people to assume most people aren’t psychotic extremists rather than assume, if you don’t check which instance something is posted to, then they probably are.
Marxist-Leninist ideology explicitly calls for the dictatorship of the proletariat. I wouldn’t want it either, but this is basically like going to a religious forum and advocating atheism (i.e. pointless).
You don’t seem to understand what Marx means by dictatorship of the proletariat. His idea of implementation of the dictatorship of the proletariat was the Paris Commune, which had universal suffrage, elected and immediately recallable delegates (a better and more democratic concept that the political clownshow we have in parliamentary democracy). I suggest reading past the name of the concept before talking nonsense.
Marxism is not the same as Marxism-Leninism. Marx might have had Paris commune as his idea of dictatorship of the proletariat, though it was all theoretical. Lenin’s take was the first implementation of the idea which was way more hardline (Red Terror) as seen in incidents like the purge of the Left SRs.
Whether Lenin’s actions were justified it’s a different matter (and tankies will certainly say they were) but ironically Tankies typically won’t dispute that Lenin was dictatorial. Rather, often they will point to talking points taken out of What is to be done? to justify why those actions were needed (i.e. the official CPSU party line).
A flat earther explains how tides work
You have a misunderstanding. Your first comment stated that Marxism-Leninism calls for a DotP. When confronted with Marx’s position, you said that ML and Marxism are not the same, indicating you believe that Marxism doesn’t [edit. I said does instead of doesn’t] call for a DotP. This is incorrect. Marx coined the term in 1850 when he was writing about the French Revolution.
Yes, Lenin produced the first functioning theory of revolution and found himself in the conditions for revolution to actually occur. And what he found was that the revolution was immediately under siege from the West (even the US invaded) and that the previous power structure was willing to engage in terror campaigns to destroy the revolution. This has been demonstrated to be the way revolutions always go, and in fact is how prior revolutions, like the French and the American revolutions went, and the Haitian revolution if you want a non-white example.
Obviously? Here it is, right from the horse’s mouth:
And of course so was Lenin, decrying “Bernsteinism”:
I don’t even get ypur objection here. Are you implying Marx did not call for DOTP or are you claiming I wasn’t sufficiently clear about saying Marx also called for DOTP? My point was that both call for DOTP but Lenin’s version of it was the only one that was realized, that it turned out to be rather brutal, and that tankies (like you just did!) don’t even distance themselves from it but embrace it. Which was the entire point in the OP.
Sorry. I made a typo and have just corrected it. Yes, it looked like you were saying that only MLism called for a DotP.
The idea that implementing a DotP was brutal is a narrative. Brutal compared to what, is the question. Because what all of those revolutions have in common is that the ruling class was already extremely brutal. The DotP reversed the brutality and made it very obvious to people because it wasn’t interested in masking it. But the reality is that all the DotPs saved more people than it killed.
Marxism-Leninism is Marxism taken to the era of imperialism, as Marxism is not a stagnant ideology of one man but an entire living field of study.
Except for the fact that you don’t have to “go” anywhere. You just have to not notice a domain name. I think it’s admirable for people to assume most people aren’t psychotic extremists rather than assume, if you don’t check which instance something is posted to, then they probably are.