??? please dont egg dead people, egging is rude to begin with. he never said he’s trans, and never wanted people to analyze his psychology, so listen to his wishes
I agree. Egg culture is already shitty as it is. Posthumous egg culture combined with posthumous misgendering is really shitty and I for one hate it. The dead can’t defend themselves against intentional misgendering, and even if you make the argument that the dead can’t suffer anymore, that isn’t true for their loved ones who are still here.
It’s basically the same as Mormons who convert people to Mormonism after their death. I don’t think trans people would be happy to be compared to Mormons like that (or vice versa).
On the one hand, we should always be cautious never to conclude anything about another person’s gender on their behalf.
On the other hand, it’s a lot more than one photo. And I’m not just talking about the fact that there’s literally multiple photos from multiple shows. Kurt’s family found a pretty sizeable collection of women’s clothes and makeup in his home. There are multiple interviews where he talks about feeling closer to the feminine side of the human experience or how he always tended to gravitate more towards having female friends, lots of stuff like that.
There’s also supposedly an early draft of All Apologies - supposed because the document exists but some people contend the authenticity - with the line “Let me grow some breasts.”
None of this is conclusive and should not be read as such, but anyone who has seen someone struggling with their gender is going to have a hard time coming to any other conclusion. Given Kurt’s obvious struggles with self-worth and eventual suicide, it’s hard not to see a painfully familiar pattern playing out here.
I disagree with people who posthumously assign him she/her pronouns and insist on categorically stating he was trans - that’s just as much misgendering as it would be to deny a trans person’s identity - but I think it’s a pretty reasonable assumption all told.
It doesn’t matter how much evidence you gather; we can’t say that a dead person who never came out was trans. It sucks and it’s a tragedy how things panned out, but if there’s one thing he didn’t like in life, it was people trying to analyze his psychology. No matter how well intentioned, it’s just us applying our own worldview to things we can never get definitive answers to.
That’s actually really gross and an erasure of trans people from history. There are a lot of cases now and throughout history of trans people unable to come out but have personal records or accounts from those close to them detailing how they felt about themselves. Saying we shouldn’t suggest anyone who was never out was trans isn’t just taking an unbiased stance, trans people are deliberately and systemically pressured from not coming out and there’s cases of trans people who were out who have their identities erased postmortem. So contributing to that feels at best like giving up ground to people who want us dead and erased.
It’s a different story if we do that firsthand accounts that more definitively indicate how that self identified, but from what I know about Kurt Cobain, he was just very eggy and queer coded. It’s entirely possible Kurt was trans, but the reason we can’t know for sure is because he never found out, not because his identity was erased.
Something that should be made very clear when talking about dead people who never found out, is that you can’t “find out” for them. Self-discovery is something that can only happen from the self. It can’t happen when someone dies.
So if they didn’t before they died and they never told anyone, you can’t assume they did because you can’t actually know, and it’s equally likely you are misgendering them.
Imagine you had an AMAB friend who gave you really eggy vibes, and one day you decided to start referring to them as “she”. Your friend hasn’t come out, hasn’t even said anything to you in private, but you insist on using she/her pronouns for them everywhere, to everyone they know, against their wishes. That would be pretty fucking gross right?
I actually agree completely that Kurt was very likely trans. But I don’t think it’s cool to loudly and publicly misgender people, no matter the intent.
Honestly, I think if she were still around, things would be different for her.
??? please dont egg dead people, egging is rude to begin with. he never said he’s trans, and never wanted people to analyze his psychology, so listen to his wishes
I agree. Egg culture is already shitty as it is. Posthumous egg culture combined with posthumous misgendering is really shitty and I for one hate it. The dead can’t defend themselves against intentional misgendering, and even if you make the argument that the dead can’t suffer anymore, that isn’t true for their loved ones who are still here.
It’s basically the same as Mormons who convert people to Mormonism after their death. I don’t think trans people would be happy to be compared to Mormons like that (or vice versa).
1 picture of him in a dress does not make him trans
On the one hand, we should always be cautious never to conclude anything about another person’s gender on their behalf.
On the other hand, it’s a lot more than one photo. And I’m not just talking about the fact that there’s literally multiple photos from multiple shows. Kurt’s family found a pretty sizeable collection of women’s clothes and makeup in his home. There are multiple interviews where he talks about feeling closer to the feminine side of the human experience or how he always tended to gravitate more towards having female friends, lots of stuff like that.
There’s also supposedly an early draft of All Apologies - supposed because the document exists but some people contend the authenticity - with the line “Let me grow some breasts.”
None of this is conclusive and should not be read as such, but anyone who has seen someone struggling with their gender is going to have a hard time coming to any other conclusion. Given Kurt’s obvious struggles with self-worth and eventual suicide, it’s hard not to see a painfully familiar pattern playing out here.
I disagree with people who posthumously assign him she/her pronouns and insist on categorically stating he was trans - that’s just as much misgendering as it would be to deny a trans person’s identity - but I think it’s a pretty reasonable assumption all told.
Or…maybe he was just a femboy yk
Maybe, maybe not but it’s still a possibility that many in this comment section seem to forget
Normalize men wearing skirts
It doesn’t matter how much evidence you gather; we can’t say that a dead person who never came out was trans. It sucks and it’s a tragedy how things panned out, but if there’s one thing he didn’t like in life, it was people trying to analyze his psychology. No matter how well intentioned, it’s just us applying our own worldview to things we can never get definitive answers to.
That’s actually really gross and an erasure of trans people from history. There are a lot of cases now and throughout history of trans people unable to come out but have personal records or accounts from those close to them detailing how they felt about themselves. Saying we shouldn’t suggest anyone who was never out was trans isn’t just taking an unbiased stance, trans people are deliberately and systemically pressured from not coming out and there’s cases of trans people who were out who have their identities erased postmortem. So contributing to that feels at best like giving up ground to people who want us dead and erased.
It’s a different story if we do that firsthand accounts that more definitively indicate how that self identified, but from what I know about Kurt Cobain, he was just very eggy and queer coded. It’s entirely possible Kurt was trans, but the reason we can’t know for sure is because he never found out, not because his identity was erased.
Something that should be made very clear when talking about dead people who never found out, is that you can’t “find out” for them. Self-discovery is something that can only happen from the self. It can’t happen when someone dies. So if they didn’t before they died and they never told anyone, you can’t assume they did because you can’t actually know, and it’s equally likely you are misgendering them.
CC: @SectoidLexi@lemmy.blahaj.zone
Exactly!
Imagine you had an AMAB friend who gave you really eggy vibes, and one day you decided to start referring to them as “she”. Your friend hasn’t come out, hasn’t even said anything to you in private, but you insist on using she/her pronouns for them everywhere, to everyone they know, against their wishes. That would be pretty fucking gross right?
I actually agree completely that Kurt was very likely trans. But I don’t think it’s cool to loudly and publicly misgender people, no matter the intent.