I get the joke/meme but the social stigmatization, personal traumatization and potential violence that comes with and at a female for even trying to leave a male love interest with a shocking capacity for violence is just too real.
With that said, I would love to play Padme in a story driven game like, say, Detroit: Become Human and cut Anakin’s throat in the middle of the night instead of meeting him at… Was it Mustafar? 🔪😈
There’s a societal component that harms men and women, and is perpetuated by both.
As a guy whose all about “love and peace,” I’ve often been viewed as too docile and effeminate to be attractive or datable. So many hetero women treat me like I’m invisible and choose to give their attentions to the guys who display overt acts of aggression and domineering behavior.
Maybe the queer community has different standards, but lesbians aren’t into me, and I’m not into guys. Bisexual women think any man that’s attracted to them are fetishizing them for the unicorn potential. And straight women who are against toxic masculinity are more likely to just trash me for being a man rather than getting to know me and my soft side.
People say they appreciate when men show vulnerability, but whenever I show vulnerability people view it as a weakness to exploit and pile on me as an easy target. They do it for the clout if for nothing else.
Like, if we want to change men’s behavior then as a society we should probably stop rewarding the worst kinds and punishing the rare exceptions for being different.
I’m aware that this makes me sound like a “nice guy,” but honestly it’s such a self-destructive and counter-productive trope that I’ve had to stop taking it seriously and just hope the rest of the world catches up at this point…
As a guy whose all about “love and peace,” I’ve often been viewed as too docile and effeminate to be attractive or datable.
Women don’t actually think like this. There’s a difference between not being aggressive and having no charisma. I doubt you’re giving off any kind of positive vibes if you have incel gloom surrounding you either.
Work on yourself, all that is expected is to not have your eyes constantly downcast. Standing up straight doesn’t mean being aggressive.
I don’t know your personal situation but I doubt you are too “docile” for women. Your pattern of thought is definitely unattractive though. Yes, it does come off as nice guy bullshit.
Okay, I guess I’m just invisible to women for other reasons, even when they’ve blatantly chosen aggressive machismo types over me throughout my life? I’ve had women confide in me about their abusive boyfriends, and when I ask why they don’t leave them they get upset at me. Does that make me a “nice guy incel” in your view? Feel free to invalidate my life experience, I don’t care. I’m used to it.
and having no charisma
Oh, so I’m just supposed to be outgoing and confident as a chronically depressed introvert in a world that biases towards extroversion and punishes nonconformity? Sounds simple /s
The “positive vibes only” crowd are some of the most subtly toxic people I’ve ever met, by the way. “Oh, you’re having a problem? Sorry, I can’t empathize, good vibes only dude.” That’s how countries sleepwalk into fascism.
Work on yourself
As if I haven’t…
all that is expected is to not have your eyes constantly downcast. Standing up straight doesn’t mean being aggressive.
a lifetime of chronic depression, low self-esteem, abuse, and ostracization makes it difficult not to have a habit of downcast eyes.
if I stand too straight people tell me I’m being arrogant because they can sense that this false confidence doesn’t come naturally to me and they love to dogpile on perceived weaknesses. As someone who’s already been labeled as a pariah, I’m literally not allowed to have self-confidence, and society will collectively punish me any time I start improving in that regard.
Your pattern of thought is definitely unattractive though.
It’s not my duty to have an attractive pattern of thought, my mind is my own and I don’t need to twist it into shapes to try to impress others. I gave up on dating long ago, but that doesn’t mean I’ll stop talking about my personal experience.
Also, you’re acting like you assume my pattern of thought came first, but that’s not how cognitive development works. The ostracization definitely came first. In middle school I tried to be friends with everybody and was called a spaz. And over the years of bullying and rejection I slowly slid deeper into cynicism to arrive at where I am today.
Yes, it does come off as nice guy bullshit.
I told you that’s what you would think. You’re so predictable. Also, what I was saying went right over your head because it sounded too close to something you could pigeonhole. That’s very primitive pattern-recognition on your part, like you’re still stuck in the 2010s. Heuristics developed as a survival trait but they can be maladaptive in modern society. It’s called prejudice.
It’s predictable because that’s what any sane person would say. Your whole comment is basically saying that you have terrible self esteem and aren’t charismatic. You don’t think that’s the problem?
You are latching on to this fantasy that the game is already lost because you aren’t “aggressive” enough for a reason. It means the situation is out of your hands and you don’t have to commit to anything or change your own problem behavior.
Grow up bro. It’s not everyone else’s duty to deal with your incel bullshit either. It’s one thing to have a bad thought pattern, it’s another to blame women so you don’t have to deal with yourself.
Being well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society is no measure of sanity.
You’re right, I have terrible self-esteem and I’m not charismatic. Are you going to keep doubling down that that’s somehow my fault? As if I’m just choosing arbitrarily to be that way? As if I have any choice at all? Literally any other demographic expresses those kinds of issues and you’ll say it’s society’s fault, but when it’s a man then you treat him like a punching bag because he’s an easy target. “Hey everyone, gang up on the loser! Hey loser, this is your fault for being a loser! Stop being such a loser and then maybe people will respect you!”
You are latching on to this fantasy that the game is already lost because you aren’t “aggressive” enough for a reason
There’s multiple reasons why I’ve “lost” the “game” of life (your words, not mine). And one part of it, the subject of this thread, is that society rewards aggressive domineering behavior in men and punishes men for showing passiveness or empathy. There are literal studies done on this, just look up the prevalence of dark triad traits in high-level corporate positions.
Stop gaslighting me that society is perfect and everything is my fault, because I guarantee you that as soon as anyone other than a cishetero white man starts complaining about their life you’ll be all “oh that’s so unfair, you know society is really sick and broken.” But no apparently society is perfect whenever I have a problem. Look yourself in a fucking mirror.
Grow up bro. It’s not everyone else’s duty to deal with your incel bullshit either.
You’re seriously telling me to grow up while you’re tossing around a childish insult about being unable to get laid, specifically to denigrate me after I mentioned society’s tendency to reward toxic masculinity and punish effeminate men for non-conformity, and the personal impact this has had on my life?
You don’t realize how counter-productive that is? You’re only reinforcing toxic masculinity and stigmatizing anyone who calls out the patterns and pushes back on it.
It’s one thing to have a bad thought pattern, it’s another to blame women so you don’t have to deal with yourself.
Point to where I ever blamed “women” for my thought patterns. I made a societal critique. The bulk of that critique is how society rewards toxic traits and punishes emotional intelligence or perceived feminity.
Are people not allowed to critique society? Cause if not then I guess you say the same thing to feminists, right?
honestly it’s such a self-destructive and counter-productive trope that I’ve had to stop taking it seriously and just hope the rest of the world catches up at this point…
This is all that I feel is relevant to the post and I do agree.
To everything else, I can only say, I have no good answer because I am - or was? - the same. Being born with a dick and trying to identify with men my whole youth and having a gentle heart is - or was? - worse than hell. What kind of saved my life and made me realize that I might not be a cisman and that my gentle heart is as valid as any other human being was this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAA1XtDOuH8
I know it’s hard, and I don’t live by this myself so I am sort of a hypocrite when I say this, but love yourself. You’re fucking valid and legit. Your docile self and all.
Hahaha, if you’re trying to nudge me into hatching just know I already spent a year+ on HRT identifying as a woman but ultimately wound up exhausted and disillusioned with society’s by and large refusal to acknowledge my chosen identity.
At some point it just became easier to slip back into egg status and stop talking to people in general because honestly even if I identify as a man they’ll still say I’m too feminine anyway…
I get it, thanks. At first I didn’t want to watch it because I guess I was afraid it might reawaken something in me. But I guess that part of me wasn’t entirely asleep, because something pulled me to watch it.
And honestly, there’s a lot in her autobiographical section in the second half that I identified with. A lot of stuff from my childhood and adolescence, and stuff from my hatching/transitioning journey (even though mine was in my late twenties) and the self-doubt I felt at that time (I’ve always felt self-doubt, but I mean the sharpened self doubt of that particular time and the struggle of back-and-forth).
I mean, my first few months on HRT I felt more whole than at any other time in my life. Arguably the only other times I ever felt whole were the times when I was in relationships, but in retrospect I may have been using my girlfriends in a way as surrogates for my repressed femininity, living vicariously through them as they opened their inner worlds to me. I remember distinctly being obsessed with cuddles, being absolutely glued to my partners and still feeling like I wasn’t close enough. Looking back it felt more like I wanted to be absorbed into their bodies and become them. So I don’t know if I can really call that “wholeness,” even if I felt whole at the time. It was a codependency.
But when I started HRT, almost immediately I felt this internal shift. Like what I once depended on extrinsic factors for, I now had intrinsically. I didn’t feel this compulsive need to find a girlfriend anymore, because I didn’t need a surrogate to live vicariously through. I could be my own woman. And for the first time in long, grueling years of despair, I felt hope that I could live a better life. I felt complete in a way I never had before.
But unfortunately, life is really so simple. I still lived in a conservative area where I was constantly invalidated (at best; I won’t go into the worst). I had no real queer friends so I relied on reddit forums mostly for camaraderie, but there was a lot of vocabulary I wasn’t familiar with so I wasn’t exactly accepted by everyone. But overall, I was able to connect with people, online strangers at least, in a way that I never had before, because I finally felt genuine. I was no longer pretending to be something I wasn’t.
But I couldn’t tune out my surroundings, and the imposter syndrome set in. A lot of constant micro-aggressions put me on the defensive, which made me look like the asshole to the people around me, and I started to feel like it too. I started doubting myself again. And I had been in a really rough time in my life leading up to the transition, which didn’t immediately go away at once, but obviously everyone had amnesia and acted like all my problems started when I started transitioning.
Also, I was getting my HRT from the government, which was fine before 47 got back in office. But a few times I was in residential therapy that were not designed for trans people at all, and honestly I think they swapped out my hormones with a placebo because my feelings of inner wholeness went away and my physical features began remasculinizing. I think they outright stopped giving me the andro-blockers, too.
So I backslid, and combined with the self-doubt and the gaslighting and the invalidation and the microaggressions and legal hurdles and lack of social support, eventually I started forgetting what it was like to finally wake up and realize the potential life I could live. I didn’t quite remember that again until watching the video in your link, except for maybe small quite glimpses here and there that I quickly repressed, so thank you.
In the time that elapsed though, I became comfortable with just pretending to be a guy again (albeit a gender non-conforming guy and often perceived as a failure of a man), and even felt embarrassed about my “trans phase attempt.” So I don’t think I’ll go right back to transitioning. But maybe someday, if I finally get away from this poor provincial life, to a place that values self-determination and GNC, perhaps I might try again… perhaps…
You’re going to try and cut the throat of one of the strongest precognitive force user ever? You do you but that sounds more suicide-y than going to Mustafar and talking to Vader.
I get the joke/meme but the social stigmatization, personal traumatization and potential violence that comes with and at a female for even trying to leave a male love interest with a shocking capacity for violence is just too real.
With that said, I would love to play Padme in a story driven game like, say, Detroit: Become Human and cut Anakin’s throat in the middle of the night instead of meeting him at… Was it Mustafar? 🔪😈
There’s a societal component that harms men and women, and is perpetuated by both.
As a guy whose all about “love and peace,” I’ve often been viewed as too docile and effeminate to be attractive or datable. So many hetero women treat me like I’m invisible and choose to give their attentions to the guys who display overt acts of aggression and domineering behavior.
Maybe the queer community has different standards, but lesbians aren’t into me, and I’m not into guys. Bisexual women think any man that’s attracted to them are fetishizing them for the unicorn potential. And straight women who are against toxic masculinity are more likely to just trash me for being a man rather than getting to know me and my soft side.
People say they appreciate when men show vulnerability, but whenever I show vulnerability people view it as a weakness to exploit and pile on me as an easy target. They do it for the clout if for nothing else.
Like, if we want to change men’s behavior then as a society we should probably stop rewarding the worst kinds and punishing the rare exceptions for being different.
I’m aware that this makes me sound like a “nice guy,” but honestly it’s such a self-destructive and counter-productive trope that I’ve had to stop taking it seriously and just hope the rest of the world catches up at this point…
Women don’t actually think like this. There’s a difference between not being aggressive and having no charisma. I doubt you’re giving off any kind of positive vibes if you have incel gloom surrounding you either.
Work on yourself, all that is expected is to not have your eyes constantly downcast. Standing up straight doesn’t mean being aggressive.
I don’t know your personal situation but I doubt you are too “docile” for women. Your pattern of thought is definitely unattractive though. Yes, it does come off as nice guy bullshit.
Okay, I guess I’m just invisible to women for other reasons, even when they’ve blatantly chosen aggressive machismo types over me throughout my life? I’ve had women confide in me about their abusive boyfriends, and when I ask why they don’t leave them they get upset at me. Does that make me a “nice guy incel” in your view? Feel free to invalidate my life experience, I don’t care. I’m used to it.
Oh, so I’m just supposed to be outgoing and confident as a chronically depressed introvert in a world that biases towards extroversion and punishes nonconformity? Sounds simple /s
The “positive vibes only” crowd are some of the most subtly toxic people I’ve ever met, by the way. “Oh, you’re having a problem? Sorry, I can’t empathize, good vibes only dude.” That’s how countries sleepwalk into fascism.
As if I haven’t…
a lifetime of chronic depression, low self-esteem, abuse, and ostracization makes it difficult not to have a habit of downcast eyes.
if I stand too straight people tell me I’m being arrogant because they can sense that this false confidence doesn’t come naturally to me and they love to dogpile on perceived weaknesses. As someone who’s already been labeled as a pariah, I’m literally not allowed to have self-confidence, and society will collectively punish me any time I start improving in that regard.
It’s not my duty to have an attractive pattern of thought, my mind is my own and I don’t need to twist it into shapes to try to impress others. I gave up on dating long ago, but that doesn’t mean I’ll stop talking about my personal experience.
Also, you’re acting like you assume my pattern of thought came first, but that’s not how cognitive development works. The ostracization definitely came first. In middle school I tried to be friends with everybody and was called a spaz. And over the years of bullying and rejection I slowly slid deeper into cynicism to arrive at where I am today.
I told you that’s what you would think. You’re so predictable. Also, what I was saying went right over your head because it sounded too close to something you could pigeonhole. That’s very primitive pattern-recognition on your part, like you’re still stuck in the 2010s. Heuristics developed as a survival trait but they can be maladaptive in modern society. It’s called prejudice.
It’s predictable because that’s what any sane person would say. Your whole comment is basically saying that you have terrible self esteem and aren’t charismatic. You don’t think that’s the problem?
You are latching on to this fantasy that the game is already lost because you aren’t “aggressive” enough for a reason. It means the situation is out of your hands and you don’t have to commit to anything or change your own problem behavior.
Grow up bro. It’s not everyone else’s duty to deal with your incel bullshit either. It’s one thing to have a bad thought pattern, it’s another to blame women so you don’t have to deal with yourself.
Being well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society is no measure of sanity.
You’re right, I have terrible self-esteem and I’m not charismatic. Are you going to keep doubling down that that’s somehow my fault? As if I’m just choosing arbitrarily to be that way? As if I have any choice at all? Literally any other demographic expresses those kinds of issues and you’ll say it’s society’s fault, but when it’s a man then you treat him like a punching bag because he’s an easy target. “Hey everyone, gang up on the loser! Hey loser, this is your fault for being a loser! Stop being such a loser and then maybe people will respect you!”
There’s multiple reasons why I’ve “lost” the “game” of life (your words, not mine). And one part of it, the subject of this thread, is that society rewards aggressive domineering behavior in men and punishes men for showing passiveness or empathy. There are literal studies done on this, just look up the prevalence of dark triad traits in high-level corporate positions.
Stop gaslighting me that society is perfect and everything is my fault, because I guarantee you that as soon as anyone other than a cishetero white man starts complaining about their life you’ll be all “oh that’s so unfair, you know society is really sick and broken.” But no apparently society is perfect whenever I have a problem. Look yourself in a fucking mirror.
You’re seriously telling me to grow up while you’re tossing around a childish insult about being unable to get laid, specifically to denigrate me after I mentioned society’s tendency to reward toxic masculinity and punish effeminate men for non-conformity, and the personal impact this has had on my life?
You don’t realize how counter-productive that is? You’re only reinforcing toxic masculinity and stigmatizing anyone who calls out the patterns and pushes back on it.
Point to where I ever blamed “women” for my thought patterns. I made a societal critique. The bulk of that critique is how society rewards toxic traits and punishes emotional intelligence or perceived feminity.
Are people not allowed to critique society? Cause if not then I guess you say the same thing to feminists, right?
This is all that I feel is relevant to the post and I do agree.
To everything else, I can only say, I have no good answer because I am - or was? - the same. Being born with a dick and trying to identify with men my whole youth and having a gentle heart is - or was? - worse than hell. What kind of saved my life and made me realize that I might not be a cisman and that my gentle heart is as valid as any other human being was this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAA1XtDOuH8
I know it’s hard, and I don’t live by this myself so I am sort of a hypocrite when I say this, but love yourself. You’re fucking valid and legit. Your docile self and all.
Hahaha, if you’re trying to nudge me into hatching just know I already spent a year+ on HRT identifying as a woman but ultimately wound up exhausted and disillusioned with society’s by and large refusal to acknowledge my chosen identity.
At some point it just became easier to slip back into egg status and stop talking to people in general because honestly even if I identify as a man they’ll still say I’m too feminine anyway…
I see. But my message was a sincere attempt at spreading love, nothing more, nothing less. 😊 Fuck society’s definitions.
I get it, thanks. At first I didn’t want to watch it because I guess I was afraid it might reawaken something in me. But I guess that part of me wasn’t entirely asleep, because something pulled me to watch it.
And honestly, there’s a lot in her autobiographical section in the second half that I identified with. A lot of stuff from my childhood and adolescence, and stuff from my hatching/transitioning journey (even though mine was in my late twenties) and the self-doubt I felt at that time (I’ve always felt self-doubt, but I mean the sharpened self doubt of that particular time and the struggle of back-and-forth).
I mean, my first few months on HRT I felt more whole than at any other time in my life. Arguably the only other times I ever felt whole were the times when I was in relationships, but in retrospect I may have been using my girlfriends in a way as surrogates for my repressed femininity, living vicariously through them as they opened their inner worlds to me. I remember distinctly being obsessed with cuddles, being absolutely glued to my partners and still feeling like I wasn’t close enough. Looking back it felt more like I wanted to be absorbed into their bodies and become them. So I don’t know if I can really call that “wholeness,” even if I felt whole at the time. It was a codependency.
But when I started HRT, almost immediately I felt this internal shift. Like what I once depended on extrinsic factors for, I now had intrinsically. I didn’t feel this compulsive need to find a girlfriend anymore, because I didn’t need a surrogate to live vicariously through. I could be my own woman. And for the first time in long, grueling years of despair, I felt hope that I could live a better life. I felt complete in a way I never had before.
But unfortunately, life is really so simple. I still lived in a conservative area where I was constantly invalidated (at best; I won’t go into the worst). I had no real queer friends so I relied on reddit forums mostly for camaraderie, but there was a lot of vocabulary I wasn’t familiar with so I wasn’t exactly accepted by everyone. But overall, I was able to connect with people, online strangers at least, in a way that I never had before, because I finally felt genuine. I was no longer pretending to be something I wasn’t.
But I couldn’t tune out my surroundings, and the imposter syndrome set in. A lot of constant micro-aggressions put me on the defensive, which made me look like the asshole to the people around me, and I started to feel like it too. I started doubting myself again. And I had been in a really rough time in my life leading up to the transition, which didn’t immediately go away at once, but obviously everyone had amnesia and acted like all my problems started when I started transitioning.
Also, I was getting my HRT from the government, which was fine before 47 got back in office. But a few times I was in residential therapy that were not designed for trans people at all, and honestly I think they swapped out my hormones with a placebo because my feelings of inner wholeness went away and my physical features began remasculinizing. I think they outright stopped giving me the andro-blockers, too.
So I backslid, and combined with the self-doubt and the gaslighting and the invalidation and the microaggressions and legal hurdles and lack of social support, eventually I started forgetting what it was like to finally wake up and realize the potential life I could live. I didn’t quite remember that again until watching the video in your link, except for maybe small quite glimpses here and there that I quickly repressed, so thank you.
In the time that elapsed though, I became comfortable with just pretending to be a guy again (albeit a gender non-conforming guy and often perceived as a failure of a man), and even felt embarrassed about my “trans
phaseattempt.” So I don’t think I’ll go right back to transitioning. But maybe someday, if I finally get away from this poor provincial life, to a place that values self-determination and GNC, perhaps I might try again… perhaps…You’re going to try and cut the throat of one of the strongest precognitive force user ever? You do you but that sounds more suicide-y than going to Mustafar and talking to Vader.
Adventure is my middle name.