I mean, a few of you at least have ever had sex with someone who was not participating, just being passive, clearly “accepting but not willing”. Am I the only one to find it a turn off?
To make love together requires a cooperation… of course not to “fuck someone” but this one is supposed in a domination, but if you need that some one be passed out to dominate them, what do you think of yourself?
If you want a sex toy, please buy it in some shop, it has never been that easy. If you want to make love, you need to seduce someone enough so they are genuinely willing to do it with you.
I do too, but “what do I find a turn off” and “what do I think is the line that must be proven before someone can be thrown in a cage, and to what standard do I think it must be shown and what things do I think work in the accused’s defense” are…not the same thing?
Given this is presumably in the context of the Cornell 7, that case has a lot of details that I think makes the whole thing fuzzier than any of the cut and dried summaries imply, and that’s just from what’s been aired publicly - there’s certainly more beneath that that isn’t public.
I will try to find Cornell 7, I don’t know about it yet…
Also, I think there are two lines, one is the legal minimum and those who play under it are a danger for society, the cage is as far as I know the best we have for them. But there is an other line over which one may feel really happy and have happy partner(s).
“Enthusiastic sober consent” should be the bare minimum. If they’re sober, but only kind of into it, that’s a “no”. If they’re enthusiastic but drunk or high, it’s a “no” until they sober up and confirm that they really want to.
Current definition of consent actually excludes the apathetic/numb/freeze/fawn response you described. So yes consent is still enough, but only if its modern definition not outdated “they didn’t resist strongly enough for me to feel bad and stop”
Current definition of consent actually excludes the apathetic/numb/freeze/fawn response you described. So yes consent is still enough, but only if its modern definition not outdated “they didn’t resist strongly enough for me to feel bad and stop”
Source?
I haven’t seen educational resources around consent ignore body language. I’ve seen plenty of men ignore women’s freeze/fawn reactions, but never in the course of educating people on consent.
Current definition of consent actually excludes the apathetic/numb/freeze/fawn response you described.
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, I just haven’t seen this particular claim in actual educational areas about consent. What current definition are you using?
Some people find it sexy to behave as sex toys or to be treated as such. Some people like to be dominated and moved around. Not everyone wants to make love, some people just want to fuck, or even to be fucked. You may find this unjust, but I feel like, in your writing, you just think about how you feel yourself, and not about how others experience their sexuality as if they were somehow broken if it doesn’t look like love and cooperation to you.
The partners are both willing, and they agree on how to do it? I am totally fine with them doing it in their way. And may one act as a slave and the other as a master, with their rules and their limit ; I see it as a form of cooperation.
If one of the partner is forced, or accept for secondary reasons (they don’t really want sex, or not that way) ; here I see a problem.
It is just the same if they are more than 2 partners. As long as they are all willing it, for it, and as it is, I find it fine.
Also, sometimes, you may be willing to try something, and find out you do not like it (you at least have this experience with food). It is important, I think, to respect the others even when they change their mind. You would not either, I think, force someone to finish a full plate of something they don’t like just because they have accepted to try to please you…
Completely agree with you. I honestly feel a little sick if someone says they were doing it as a favor to me. Don’t do that. If you aren’t into it, just tell me. I can take of myself in that case.
Exactly this. Hell, I’ve had instances where one of my partners just isn’t into it, or something happens and they’re not feeling it anymore, and it just takes all the enjoyment out of it.
Consent, connection, and enjoyment are critical for me.
You’re right and it’s tragic. It’s part of the punching down systems these guys benefit from when they climb in the hierarchies, the old boys’ club. I’m a guy and have seen how guys can benefit in life, but shouldn’t use it to hurt others. Same thing in many families, supernatural groups, sports, frats, military, and right-wing politics. People cant wait for their turn to punch down on someone and it’s indoctrinated as normal and good. They all hide their abusive ways, where real truth stands in the open. Tribalism, right/wrong obedient to authority, it’s easier than having real convictions, and just go along with what was brainwashed into them. And again these guys benefit from their privilege and get mad when that word is used, since their ego takes over and they have not ego awareness as we all need, but that’s part of these unhealthy systems.
A very sad thing is that, unless we take care of it, we are all bound to value this “winning male” behaviour as not only normal but also as good! The ones aware don’t need to make an effort to see how wrong it is… but take a young adult male who became a successfull influencer or businessman, how surprising would it be that he abused sexualy of someone? Isn’t it in the pack with the success? Of course it should not be… but we would need that young men grow understanding that abusing others is gross and a lesser thing.
And so, breaking idols out of abusive behavior isn’t just to piss off their fans. It is to make abuse incompatible with success. To turn “yes, of course, he is such a man!” into “he fucked up, he is such a looser!”… which would be a nice step taken against patriarchy, and hopefully not the last one!
Am I the only one thinking consent isn’t enough?
I mean, a few of you at least have ever had sex with someone who was not participating, just being passive, clearly “accepting but not willing”. Am I the only one to find it a turn off?
To make love together requires a cooperation… of course not to “fuck someone” but this one is supposed in a domination, but if you need that some one be passed out to dominate them, what do you think of yourself?
If you want a sex toy, please buy it in some shop, it has never been that easy. If you want to make love, you need to seduce someone enough so they are genuinely willing to do it with you.
I do too, but “what do I find a turn off” and “what do I think is the line that must be proven before someone can be thrown in a cage, and to what standard do I think it must be shown and what things do I think work in the accused’s defense” are…not the same thing?
Given this is presumably in the context of the Cornell 7, that case has a lot of details that I think makes the whole thing fuzzier than any of the cut and dried summaries imply, and that’s just from what’s been aired publicly - there’s certainly more beneath that that isn’t public.
I will try to find Cornell 7, I don’t know about it yet…
Also, I think there are two lines, one is the legal minimum and those who play under it are a danger for society, the cage is as far as I know the best we have for them. But there is an other line over which one may feel really happy and have happy partner(s).
I wish to call for playing above the second.
“Enthusiastic sober consent” should be the bare minimum. If they’re sober, but only kind of into it, that’s a “no”. If they’re enthusiastic but drunk or high, it’s a “no” until they sober up and confirm that they really want to.
Current definition of consent actually excludes the apathetic/numb/freeze/fawn response you described. So yes consent is still enough, but only if its modern definition not outdated “they didn’t resist strongly enough for me to feel bad and stop”
Many men won’t stop if you say “Stop.”, but will if you say “Stop raping me.” but will still call you crazy before leaving.
Source?
I haven’t seen educational resources around consent ignore body language. I’ve seen plenty of men ignore women’s freeze/fawn reactions, but never in the course of educating people on consent.
I said the same thing as you just did, please read again.
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, I just haven’t seen this particular claim in actual educational areas about consent. What current definition are you using?
I meant “yes means Yes!” principle that some advocate for.
I believe this is the source I first heard the idea from
Article: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/08/the-dangerous-insufficiency-of-no-means-no/566465/
Without paywall: https://www.removepaywall.com/search?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theatlantic.com%2Fentertainment%2Farchive%2F2018%2F08%2Fthe-dangerous-insufficiency-of-no-means-no%2F566465%2F
Basically the idea is that “No means no” is outdated and doesn’t cover majority of rape cases where no one technically says no.
The updated one to replace “No means no” is “Yes means Yes!”, also called affirmative/enthusiastic consent or something.
Ah see I was in the mindset that “yes means yes” is the current consent shorthand. Thank you for the links!
Some people find it sexy to behave as sex toys or to be treated as such. Some people like to be dominated and moved around. Not everyone wants to make love, some people just want to fuck, or even to be fucked. You may find this unjust, but I feel like, in your writing, you just think about how you feel yourself, and not about how others experience their sexuality as if they were somehow broken if it doesn’t look like love and cooperation to you.
There are more flavors than vanilla.
The partners are both willing, and they agree on how to do it? I am totally fine with them doing it in their way. And may one act as a slave and the other as a master, with their rules and their limit ; I see it as a form of cooperation.
If one of the partner is forced, or accept for secondary reasons (they don’t really want sex, or not that way) ; here I see a problem.
It is just the same if they are more than 2 partners. As long as they are all willing it, for it, and as it is, I find it fine.
Also, sometimes, you may be willing to try something, and find out you do not like it (you at least have this experience with food). It is important, I think, to respect the others even when they change their mind. You would not either, I think, force someone to finish a full plate of something they don’t like just because they have accepted to try to please you…
Yes, we agree. No is no, no matter when and what happened before. The message I replied before, felt more rigid.
Completely agree with you. I honestly feel a little sick if someone says they were doing it as a favor to me. Don’t do that. If you aren’t into it, just tell me. I can take of myself in that case.
Exactly this. Hell, I’ve had instances where one of my partners just isn’t into it, or something happens and they’re not feeling it anymore, and it just takes all the enjoyment out of it.
Consent, connection, and enjoyment are critical for me.
Thank you!
And yes, lets have a fun time together doing something we are both willing to do together! It will be a better time for everyone!
You’re right and it’s tragic. It’s part of the punching down systems these guys benefit from when they climb in the hierarchies, the old boys’ club. I’m a guy and have seen how guys can benefit in life, but shouldn’t use it to hurt others. Same thing in many families, supernatural groups, sports, frats, military, and right-wing politics. People cant wait for their turn to punch down on someone and it’s indoctrinated as normal and good. They all hide their abusive ways, where real truth stands in the open. Tribalism, right/wrong obedient to authority, it’s easier than having real convictions, and just go along with what was brainwashed into them. And again these guys benefit from their privilege and get mad when that word is used, since their ego takes over and they have not ego awareness as we all need, but that’s part of these unhealthy systems.
Abolish the patriarchy.
A very sad thing is that, unless we take care of it, we are all bound to value this “winning male” behaviour as not only normal but also as good! The ones aware don’t need to make an effort to see how wrong it is… but take a young adult male who became a successfull influencer or businessman, how surprising would it be that he abused sexualy of someone? Isn’t it in the pack with the success? Of course it should not be… but we would need that young men grow understanding that abusing others is gross and a lesser thing.
And so, breaking idols out of abusive behavior isn’t just to piss off their fans. It is to make abuse incompatible with success. To turn “yes, of course, he is such a man!” into “he fucked up, he is such a looser!”… which would be a nice step taken against patriarchy, and hopefully not the last one!