If you can’t recognize the difference between being pro-palestinian and pro-hamas, then you’re not worth having a serious discussion with.
By the way, the Israeli government would like nothing more than for the world to view the two things as the same. It’s the same as conflating anti-zionism with anti-semitism.
And if you think it’s not a real problem and only exists in the imagination, then you should read more about some of the “activist” groups in the UK.
Second of all, I support all aspects of Palestinian resistance unconditionally. That includes Hamas, as well as the numerous other resistance factions within both Gaza and the West Bank.
Third, there’s a reason that all the other resistance groups, including the communist PFLP and the anarchist Fauda, have cooperated and coordinated with Hamas and one another both in military operations and peace negotiations. Because for all of them a unified front for liberation surpasses any ideological differences. Picking and choosing which ones you do or don’t support while you’re sitting comfortably at home, completely removed from the genocide, is completely ridiculous. Not to mention that Hamas is more than just the Al Qassam brigades, every department in Gaza from healthcare to education to agriculture is also Hamas.
It’s the same as conflating anti-zionism with anti-semitism.
No it’s absolutely fucking not. That shows how little you know or care. Zionism is a fascist ideology. Israel intentionally conflates the two to defend it’s fascist actions at the expense of Jewish people globally.
Hamas is conservative, as many other anti-colonial resistance have been. It is a reaction against colonialism. Fanon discusses the nature of this at length, it does not de-legitimize anti-colonial resistance. Denouncing their resistance for that reason is playing exactly into the hands of the colonialists. Immediate survival, such as resistance to genocide and apartheid, is the immediate concern. Progressive changes happen from within a society once there is breathing room for that societal and/or political change to take place. A society can’t breathe when under occupation or genocide. That mentality of conditionality for emancipation is exactly why Israel does Pinkwashing.
Woop, there it is. You can’t rape your way to liberty. But since you support hamas unconditionally, I suppose you disagree with me there.
I would say I support Palestinian liberation, but if you think that means I have to support hamas then I guess I can’t do that. That’s what I mean when I say you’re promoting Israel’s narrative when you say pro-Palestinian means pro-Hamas. If that’s the case, then I guess they weren’t lying when they designated hospitals and schools as military targets. In your own words, those are run by hamas.
If it were up to me, I’d say avoid civilian infrastructure. But if hamas is hiding weapons caches and command centers underneath hospitals and schools, then they’re partially responsible for the resulting destruction.
The Palestinian Authority could have made diplomatic progress towards autonomy and sovereignty, but hamas fought them for control and radicalized the youth. Now the Palestinian Authority has no power, and terrorists are indistinguishable from civilians.
But you’re not willing to criticize hamas, so you’re just gonna pout and accuse me of supporting genocide. I don’t. Israel’s response has been disproportionate beyond any reasonability. But you’re enabling their narrative when you say things like “picking and choosing which [Palestinian factions] you do or don’t support is completely ridiculous.”
I can and do reject hamas for their ideologies as well as their methodologies. That doesn’t mean I approve of Israel’s ethnic cleansing, expansion, and settler-colonialism. But when you conflate the two, you’re actually helping Israel because now anyone who doesn’t support hamas can’t support Palestine, apparently, according to you.
And there it is, a bunch of Zionist propaganda that has been repeatedly debunked. Your shitty hasbara isn’t fooling anyone, Zionist.
No, I don’t support rape, unlike those who defend Israel. Nor did I say I don’t have criticisms of Hamas, I do.
UN Statements Undercut New Israeli Report on 10/7 Sexual Violence. Your atrocity propaganda has been debunked repeatedly. Meanwhile, Israel has extensive documentation of raping Palestinians systematically, even to death, as a form of torture. As well as torturing and sexually abusing children held captive.
All your other bullshit about human shields has also already been debunked, and in fact the evidence shows Israel guilty instead. Every accusation is a confession.
Blockade, including Aid
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
After the ‘disengagement’ in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of ‘dual-use’ Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted.
The blockade and Israel’s repeated military offensives have had a heavy toll on Gaza’s essential infrastructure and further debilitated its health system and economy, leaving the area in a state of perpetual humanitarian crisis. Indeed, Israel’s collective punishment of Gaza’s civilian population, the majority of whom are children, has created conditions inimical to human life due to shortages of housing, potable water and electricity, and lack of access to essential medicines and medical care, food, educational equipment and building materials.
Hamas proposed a full prisoner swap as early as Oct 8th, and agreed to the US proposed UN Permanent Ceasefire Resolution. Additionally, Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
Intentionally utilizing the presence of civilians or other protected persons to render certain areas immune from military attack is prohibited under international law. Amnesty International was not able to establish whether or not the fighters’ presence in the camps was intended to shield themselves from military attacks. However, under international humanitarian law, even if one party uses “human shields”, or is otherwise unlawfully endangering civilians, this does not absolve the opposing party from complying with its obligations to distinguish between military objectives and civilians or civilian objects, to refrain from carrying out indiscriminate or disproportionate attacks, and to take all feasible precautions to spare civilians and civilian objects.
Israel also targets Israeli Soldiers and Civilians to prevent them being leveraged as hostages, known as the Hannibal Directive. Which was also used on Oct 7th.
Adi Callai has written on the parallels in his article The Gaza Ghetto Uprising and expanded upon in his corresponding video
Dude, I’m not a zionist. My comment clearly included critiques of the Israeli government, which a zionist wouldn’t have included. Unlike you, I’m actually capable of criticizing both hamas and the Israeli government. There’s not really a “good side” in this conflict, which is part of why it’s so complex and hard to solve. But there are innocent civilians on both sides.
This is precisely what I meant when I said that to some people, “anyone who doesn’t blow hamas is a genocide supporter.” Your response was to push me to mention what’s wrong with hamas, and then you act like I’m defending Israel because I say “rape and human shields are bad.”
Nothing has been debunked, there’s graphic evidence to the contrary. The “that’s been debunked” bullshit is pro-hamas propaganda.
And you literally said you support hamas unconditionally. Now you say “I didn’t say I don’t have criticisms of hamas, I do.” Do you know what unconditional means, or are you backtracking?
And if anything I said sounds to you like Israeli propaganda, it’s because I was pointing out to you the logical conclusions of the things you were saying. You claimed that pro-Palestinian and pro-hamas are the same thing. That’s literally Israeli propaganda. Israel defines every Palestinian civilian as a member of hamas, to try to justify their atrocities against civilians.
Apparently you misunderstood what I was saying, although I thought I was quite clear. I wasn’t saying “Israel is right, every Palestinian is hamas so it’s okay to target civilians.” I was saying “conflating pro-Palestinian with pro-hamas is Israeli propaganda, which you’re parroting, and if it were true then we would have to accept Israel’s justifications for atrocities against civilians.” Real self-aware wolves moment there.
But it seems your head is so deep in your own ass that it can likely never be extricated, so you’ll probably double down on calling me a zionist because I refuse to say hamas is even remotely okay. Apparently according to you, I can’t be pro-civilian, supporting Palestinian civilians and Israeli civilians alike. Apparently, according to you, I have to choose a side, and only one can survive. That logic leaves room for only two outcomes, both of which are ethnic cleansing on one side or the other, and creates a “survival of the fittest”/“might makes right” paradigm which is unwinnable for Palestine. And for the record, in case it’s still unclear, I fundamentally disagree with that.
You rock. Thanks for being a voice of reason. I like to think that someone out there will read this conversation and see that you’re the only one being reasonable, so it’s not in vain. I definitely couldn’t keep a cool head in this comment chain like you did.
You don’t have to blow hamas in order to take an anti-colonial stance, and if you think otherwise then you’re proving my point.
If you actually flesh out your point, maybe we can have an genuine discussion.
If you can’t recognize the difference between being pro-palestinian and pro-hamas, then you’re not worth having a serious discussion with.
By the way, the Israeli government would like nothing more than for the world to view the two things as the same. It’s the same as conflating anti-zionism with anti-semitism.
And if you think it’s not a real problem and only exists in the imagination, then you should read more about some of the “activist” groups in the UK.
First of all, I didn’t even mention Hamas.
Second of all, I support all aspects of Palestinian resistance unconditionally. That includes Hamas, as well as the numerous other resistance factions within both Gaza and the West Bank.
Third, there’s a reason that all the other resistance groups, including the communist PFLP and the anarchist Fauda, have cooperated and coordinated with Hamas and one another both in military operations and peace negotiations. Because for all of them a unified front for liberation surpasses any ideological differences. Picking and choosing which ones you do or don’t support while you’re sitting comfortably at home, completely removed from the genocide, is completely ridiculous. Not to mention that Hamas is more than just the Al Qassam brigades, every department in Gaza from healthcare to education to agriculture is also Hamas.
No it’s absolutely fucking not. That shows how little you know or care. Zionism is a fascist ideology. Israel intentionally conflates the two to defend it’s fascist actions at the expense of Jewish people globally.
Hamas is conservative, as many other anti-colonial resistance have been. It is a reaction against colonialism. Fanon discusses the nature of this at length, it does not de-legitimize anti-colonial resistance. Denouncing their resistance for that reason is playing exactly into the hands of the colonialists. Immediate survival, such as resistance to genocide and apartheid, is the immediate concern. Progressive changes happen from within a society once there is breathing room for that societal and/or political change to take place. A society can’t breathe when under occupation or genocide. That mentality of conditionality for emancipation is exactly why Israel does Pinkwashing.
Woop, there it is. You can’t rape your way to liberty. But since you support hamas unconditionally, I suppose you disagree with me there.
I would say I support Palestinian liberation, but if you think that means I have to support hamas then I guess I can’t do that. That’s what I mean when I say you’re promoting Israel’s narrative when you say pro-Palestinian means pro-Hamas. If that’s the case, then I guess they weren’t lying when they designated hospitals and schools as military targets. In your own words, those are run by hamas.
If it were up to me, I’d say avoid civilian infrastructure. But if hamas is hiding weapons caches and command centers underneath hospitals and schools, then they’re partially responsible for the resulting destruction.
The Palestinian Authority could have made diplomatic progress towards autonomy and sovereignty, but hamas fought them for control and radicalized the youth. Now the Palestinian Authority has no power, and terrorists are indistinguishable from civilians.
But you’re not willing to criticize hamas, so you’re just gonna pout and accuse me of supporting genocide. I don’t. Israel’s response has been disproportionate beyond any reasonability. But you’re enabling their narrative when you say things like “picking and choosing which [Palestinian factions] you do or don’t support is completely ridiculous.”
I can and do reject hamas for their ideologies as well as their methodologies. That doesn’t mean I approve of Israel’s ethnic cleansing, expansion, and settler-colonialism. But when you conflate the two, you’re actually helping Israel because now anyone who doesn’t support hamas can’t support Palestine, apparently, according to you.
And there it is, a bunch of Zionist propaganda that has been repeatedly debunked. Your shitty hasbara isn’t fooling anyone, Zionist.
No, I don’t support rape, unlike those who defend Israel. Nor did I say I don’t have criticisms of Hamas, I do.
UN Statements Undercut New Israeli Report on 10/7 Sexual Violence. Your atrocity propaganda has been debunked repeatedly. Meanwhile, Israel has extensive documentation of raping Palestinians systematically, even to death, as a form of torture. As well as torturing and sexually abusing children held captive.
See here for sources
All your other bullshit about human shields has also already been debunked, and in fact the evidence shows Israel guilty instead. Every accusation is a confession.
Blockade, including Aid
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
After the ‘disengagement’ in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of ‘dual-use’ Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted.
Peace Process and Solution
Hamas proposed a full prisoner swap as early as Oct 8th, and agreed to the US proposed UN Permanent Ceasefire Resolution. Additionally, Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
Human Shields
Hamas:
HRW on Laws-of-War Violations 2009
Agency Demands Full Respect for the Sanctity of Its Premises in Gaza - July 2014
HRW - Palestinian Armed Groups’ October 7 Assault on Israel
Israel:
Israel/OPT: Israeli attacks targeting Hamas and other armed group fighters that killed scores of displaced civilians in Rafah should be investigated as war crimes
HRW - Gaza: Unlawful Israeli Hospital Strikes Worsen Health Crisis
Additionally, there is extensive independent verification of Israel using Palestinians as Human Shields:
IDF uses Human Shields,
Including Children (2013 Report)
Palestinian children face unrelenting genocide, displacement, and systematic abuse throughout 2024
Israel “Systematically” Uses Gaza Children as Human Shields, Rights Group Finds 2024
Breaking The Silence - Testimonies from IDF Veterans
Deliberate Attacks on Civilians
Israel deliberately targets civilian areas. From in general with the Dahiya Doctrine to multiple systems deployed in Gaza to do so:
The Dahiya Doctrine & Israel’s Use of Disproportionate Force
‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza
Lavender
Where’s Daddy
Israel also targets Israeli Soldiers and Civilians to prevent them being leveraged as hostages, known as the Hannibal Directive. Which was also used on Oct 7th.
Adi Callai has written on the parallels in his article The Gaza Ghetto Uprising and expanded upon in his corresponding video
Dude, I’m not a zionist. My comment clearly included critiques of the Israeli government, which a zionist wouldn’t have included. Unlike you, I’m actually capable of criticizing both hamas and the Israeli government. There’s not really a “good side” in this conflict, which is part of why it’s so complex and hard to solve. But there are innocent civilians on both sides.
This is precisely what I meant when I said that to some people, “anyone who doesn’t blow hamas is a genocide supporter.” Your response was to push me to mention what’s wrong with hamas, and then you act like I’m defending Israel because I say “rape and human shields are bad.”
Nothing has been debunked, there’s graphic evidence to the contrary. The “that’s been debunked” bullshit is pro-hamas propaganda.
And you literally said you support hamas unconditionally. Now you say “I didn’t say I don’t have criticisms of hamas, I do.” Do you know what unconditional means, or are you backtracking?
And if anything I said sounds to you like Israeli propaganda, it’s because I was pointing out to you the logical conclusions of the things you were saying. You claimed that pro-Palestinian and pro-hamas are the same thing. That’s literally Israeli propaganda. Israel defines every Palestinian civilian as a member of hamas, to try to justify their atrocities against civilians.
Apparently you misunderstood what I was saying, although I thought I was quite clear. I wasn’t saying “Israel is right, every Palestinian is hamas so it’s okay to target civilians.” I was saying “conflating pro-Palestinian with pro-hamas is Israeli propaganda, which you’re parroting, and if it were true then we would have to accept Israel’s justifications for atrocities against civilians.” Real self-aware wolves moment there.
But it seems your head is so deep in your own ass that it can likely never be extricated, so you’ll probably double down on calling me a zionist because I refuse to say hamas is even remotely okay. Apparently according to you, I can’t be pro-civilian, supporting Palestinian civilians and Israeli civilians alike. Apparently, according to you, I have to choose a side, and only one can survive. That logic leaves room for only two outcomes, both of which are ethnic cleansing on one side or the other, and creates a “survival of the fittest”/“might makes right” paradigm which is unwinnable for Palestine. And for the record, in case it’s still unclear, I fundamentally disagree with that.
You rock. Thanks for being a voice of reason. I like to think that someone out there will read this conversation and see that you’re the only one being reasonable, so it’s not in vain. I definitely couldn’t keep a cool head in this comment chain like you did.