Let’s look at it this way. There are two choices. (We can talk about why that’s bad some other time.)
Presuming you are a US voter, you will be supporting one of those choices. (Not choosing, or “intentional grounding”is support for one of the choices.)
I’m scared and angry, so I want to blame as many people as I can. I blame the Democrats for supporting Israel, I blame the non voters for not voting, and I blame the people who were bad-mouthing Biden and Harris in 2024 for making more non voters. I’m blaming everyone! You’re all too busy arguing with each other to stop the literal pedophile Nazi from taking over the country. I don’t care how bad it was in 2024, this is worse! They’re taking people off the streets, they’re cancelling trans people’s licences, they’re bombing Iran! This is worse! THIS IS WORSE!
This is the package deal centrists forced on everyone else because they didn’t want to say no to netanyahu, consequences be damned.
This was what progressives warned you would happen if you didn’t stop your support for genocide. The ones of us who voted for harris correctly told you that not everyone would vote for the genocide you wanted.
None of you listened. Not fucking one. You all just screeched abuse louder.
You fucked up and got too much of the only thing you wanted.
I disagree quite fundamentally that not voting for the democrats is the same choice as voting for republicans…but it sounds like you’re going somewhere, so sure, we can talk about it!
If you frame it this way, you have two choices:
A. vote for the democratic party; or
B. not vote for the democratic party.
Whatever you need to tell yourself to feel morally superior I guess.
At the end of the day the question is, if the people who didn’t vote Democrat due to Palestine would have voted, would that have been enough for the Republicans to loose? If so, you are kind of responsible for the ICE raids.
Of course the follow up question: If you care so much about Palestine, why are you choosing to not vote against the party that is very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu? Did you really believe Trumps claims about being the president of peace?
This is not a math question in which democrats winning is good and democrats losing is bad. And frankly, even if it were that straightforward, it still wouldn’t be the same as voting for a republican, because voting republican is twice as bad on net…so maybe you need to think about your back-of-the-napkin math?
The whole point is that we do not want the Democrats, as they are, to win. We want them to change. We want someone other than genocidiers to run the country. And if they won’t change to stop supporting a genocide AND they won’t change to win, that’s their choice, not mine.
The democrats winning, as they are, would be infinitely worse than the democrats changing.
So on principle you want republicans to win and cause more deaths in Gaza, because democrats aren’t perfect. That’s fine, but don’t say you’re against genicide and then vote for more genocide. Take responsibility for all the deaths you cause.
Uhh…sorry, what? I don’t want the republicans to win, I want the democrats to change (and then win). They can just do that. That’s on them. I think I’ve been pretty goddamn clear about that.
The democrats are moral agents. We’re not choosing between an earthquake and a wildfire here. You’re acting as though there’s no way the democrats could ever do anything but fund a genocide. As if there’s simply no other thing they could possibly do.
It’s not that they’re not perfect, it’s because they’re fucking evil and actively support a genocide.
“Not perfect” jesus christ.
I’m not killing anybody, and I’m not going to kill people indirectly by voting for a party that’s perfectly happy to go conduct a genocide. I’m not making myself complicit in that, thanks. If you would have been happy voting for continuing US support for genocide in palestine because you thought it’d be a little better for us back home, that’s your business. But don’t tell me I’m causing death by refusing to support genocide in palestine. The democrats could stop.
The democrats winning, as they are, would be infinitely worse than the democrats changing.
Not sure if you’ve been watching the news since the election but Dems winning as they are would be just fine. Changing for the better is of course good, but throwing the country to the wolves was a really dumb idea. As most of us have seen more than ample evidence of.
I mean…my guy…it’s 1% as bad here as it is in Gaza. It would not be just fine. Just fine for you maybe.
They have to change. And It’s not some massive crazy line in the sand to not vote for people who actively support genocide. That’s like…the lowest possible bar to clear.
You do understand that Gaza is much worse off as well, right?
Like, it’s an absolute shitshow-dumpster-fire everywhere now. Not voting Harris was just insanity.
Like, I agree Gaza is and was a preventable tragedy in motion, and that Democrats messed up by not standing up for them. Agreed there. That said . . . We are all so fucked now, in part because of that talking point. Economically, Domestically, Militarily, Environmentally, Socially fucked - because people didn’t vote Democratic.
Y’know who changes the Democrats? Democrats. When there aren’t any in office they’re harder to change, right?
Gaza is not worse off than if the democrats changed, because if the democrats changed they’d win, as you point out yourself. And then things would be better for Gaza. I know you’re saying it’s worse off under Republicans than under Democrats…I’m skeptical it would be any different, but whatever, sure, maybe it’s 10% worse, idk. None of my business. I’m not voting for 10% less demonic when they could just stop being demons instead.
We’re not fucked because we didn’t vote for the Democrats, we’re fucked because the Democrats decided that continuing to support a genocide was more important than winning. No one should be asked to hold their nose that hard. Getting killed by Nazis would be better than actively helping and legitimizing the diet-nazis. The domestic horror is a rounding error. Feel free to throw in other points if you want too, medicare for all, meaningful environmental regulation, or whatever you want, maybe those would have been enough to make a difference, but I think Palestine is a pretty goddamn huge one. The point is they were not trying to be minimally palatable. I’m sure you know, but in case you didn’t, 2020 biden would have beaten 2024 trump…trump didn’t win (he did worse than he did in 2020), the democrats lost hard.
The party doesn’t cease to exist when it’s not in power; they don’t need to be in office to change. In fact, I’d say when they’re in office they’re impossible to change…why change when they’re winning? The party platform could say “Israel is conducting a genocide in Palestine and if you vote for us we’ll put a stop to US support for it.” They could announce that first thing in the morning if they gave a shit. I’d be banging on doors for them tomorrow afternoon, and I don’t think that’s an unusual position. Since they don’t give a shit about the genocide they have to carefully weigh whether it’s worthwhile, from the perspective of electoral success, to alienate zionists in order to win the support of people who do give a shit. Fine, I can’t control that. But I can control whether I vote for them or not; whether they actually have to consider that or not. Let them decide, but don’t look at me askance for not wanting to vote for more support for genocide.
If you voted for Harris, she was explicit, you were voting for continued support for genocide in Palestine. Maybe you can hold your nose and say “relative to trump, some slight reduction in horror there and significant reduction in horror here is enough for me to vote for continued horror there,” good for you, I 'aint judging, I don’t care. I can’t do that.
Well I’m not going to change your mind but I hope the three people who scroll by will consider trying to unfuck us all in the midterms in eight months.
Let’s look at it this way. There are two choices. (We can talk about why that’s bad some other time.)
Presuming you are a US voter, you will be supporting one of those choices. (Not choosing, or “intentional grounding”is support for one of the choices.)
Okay? We on the same page so far?
You can stop pretending that you think it’s bad.
I think the two party system is bad, but I don’t want my family to die. Lemmy users said those two opinions are opposites
I think genocide is bad. People who love genocide more than anything will NEVER admit unprompted that democrats have no business supporting it.
No matter what it means for their families. Maybe if centrists has quelled their bloodlust for a few months, we wouldn’t be here.
I’m scared and angry, so I want to blame as many people as I can. I blame the Democrats for supporting Israel, I blame the non voters for not voting, and I blame the people who were bad-mouthing Biden and Harris in 2024 for making more non voters. I’m blaming everyone! You’re all too busy arguing with each other to stop the literal pedophile Nazi from taking over the country. I don’t care how bad it was in 2024, this is worse! They’re taking people off the streets, they’re cancelling trans people’s licences, they’re bombing Iran! This is worse! THIS IS WORSE!
This is the package deal centrists forced on everyone else because they didn’t want to say no to netanyahu, consequences be damned.
This was what progressives warned you would happen if you didn’t stop your support for genocide. The ones of us who voted for harris correctly told you that not everyone would vote for the genocide you wanted.
None of you listened. Not fucking one. You all just screeched abuse louder.
You fucked up and got too much of the only thing you wanted.
What did the trans americans in my family do to deserve being put in a concentration camp?
I disagree quite fundamentally that not voting for the democrats is the same choice as voting for republicans…but it sounds like you’re going somewhere, so sure, we can talk about it!
If you frame it this way, you have two choices:
A. vote for the democratic party; or B. not vote for the democratic party.
Same page so far.
Whatever you need to tell yourself to feel morally superior I guess.
At the end of the day the question is, if the people who didn’t vote Democrat due to Palestine would have voted, would that have been enough for the Republicans to loose? If so, you are kind of responsible for the ICE raids.
Of course the follow up question: If you care so much about Palestine, why are you choosing to not vote against the party that is very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu? Did you really believe Trumps claims about being the president of peace?
Maybe you should go back to grade school math.
This is not a math question in which democrats winning is good and democrats losing is bad. And frankly, even if it were that straightforward, it still wouldn’t be the same as voting for a republican, because voting republican is twice as bad on net…so maybe you need to think about your back-of-the-napkin math?
The whole point is that we do not want the Democrats, as they are, to win. We want them to change. We want someone other than genocidiers to run the country. And if they won’t change to stop supporting a genocide AND they won’t change to win, that’s their choice, not mine.
The democrats winning, as they are, would be infinitely worse than the democrats changing.
So on principle you want republicans to win and cause more deaths in Gaza, because democrats aren’t perfect. That’s fine, but don’t say you’re against genicide and then vote for more genocide. Take responsibility for all the deaths you cause.
Uhh…sorry, what? I don’t want the republicans to win, I want the democrats to change (and then win). They can just do that. That’s on them. I think I’ve been pretty goddamn clear about that.
The democrats are moral agents. We’re not choosing between an earthquake and a wildfire here. You’re acting as though there’s no way the democrats could ever do anything but fund a genocide. As if there’s simply no other thing they could possibly do.
It’s not that they’re not perfect, it’s because they’re fucking evil and actively support a genocide.
“Not perfect” jesus christ.
I’m not killing anybody, and I’m not going to kill people indirectly by voting for a party that’s perfectly happy to go conduct a genocide. I’m not making myself complicit in that, thanks. If you would have been happy voting for continuing US support for genocide in palestine because you thought it’d be a little better for us back home, that’s your business. But don’t tell me I’m causing death by refusing to support genocide in palestine. The democrats could stop.
Not sure if you’ve been watching the news since the election but Dems winning as they are would be just fine. Changing for the better is of course good, but throwing the country to the wolves was a really dumb idea. As most of us have seen more than ample evidence of.
I mean…my guy…it’s 1% as bad here as it is in Gaza. It would not be just fine. Just fine for you maybe.
They have to change. And It’s not some massive crazy line in the sand to not vote for people who actively support genocide. That’s like…the lowest possible bar to clear.
You do understand that Gaza is much worse off as well, right?
Like, it’s an absolute shitshow-dumpster-fire everywhere now. Not voting Harris was just insanity.
Like, I agree Gaza is and was a preventable tragedy in motion, and that Democrats messed up by not standing up for them. Agreed there. That said . . . We are all so fucked now, in part because of that talking point. Economically, Domestically, Militarily, Environmentally, Socially fucked - because people didn’t vote Democratic.
Y’know who changes the Democrats? Democrats. When there aren’t any in office they’re harder to change, right?
Gaza is not worse off than if the democrats changed, because if the democrats changed they’d win, as you point out yourself. And then things would be better for Gaza. I know you’re saying it’s worse off under Republicans than under Democrats…I’m skeptical it would be any different, but whatever, sure, maybe it’s 10% worse, idk. None of my business. I’m not voting for 10% less demonic when they could just stop being demons instead.
We’re not fucked because we didn’t vote for the Democrats, we’re fucked because the Democrats decided that continuing to support a genocide was more important than winning. No one should be asked to hold their nose that hard. Getting killed by Nazis would be better than actively helping and legitimizing the diet-nazis. The domestic horror is a rounding error. Feel free to throw in other points if you want too, medicare for all, meaningful environmental regulation, or whatever you want, maybe those would have been enough to make a difference, but I think Palestine is a pretty goddamn huge one. The point is they were not trying to be minimally palatable. I’m sure you know, but in case you didn’t, 2020 biden would have beaten 2024 trump…trump didn’t win (he did worse than he did in 2020), the democrats lost hard.
The party doesn’t cease to exist when it’s not in power; they don’t need to be in office to change. In fact, I’d say when they’re in office they’re impossible to change…why change when they’re winning? The party platform could say “Israel is conducting a genocide in Palestine and if you vote for us we’ll put a stop to US support for it.” They could announce that first thing in the morning if they gave a shit. I’d be banging on doors for them tomorrow afternoon, and I don’t think that’s an unusual position. Since they don’t give a shit about the genocide they have to carefully weigh whether it’s worthwhile, from the perspective of electoral success, to alienate zionists in order to win the support of people who do give a shit. Fine, I can’t control that. But I can control whether I vote for them or not; whether they actually have to consider that or not. Let them decide, but don’t look at me askance for not wanting to vote for more support for genocide.
If you voted for Harris, she was explicit, you were voting for continued support for genocide in Palestine. Maybe you can hold your nose and say “relative to trump, some slight reduction in horror there and significant reduction in horror here is enough for me to vote for continued horror there,” good for you, I 'aint judging, I don’t care. I can’t do that.
Well I’m not going to change your mind but I hope the three people who scroll by will consider trying to unfuck us all in the midterms in eight months.