• goat@sh.itjust.worksOPM
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      23 days ago

      The wildest thing is that db0 often argues with Tankies about unity as they repeatedly tell him that they’ll kill anarchists if given the chance.

      Yet for whatever reason, the few anarchists left on dbzer0 and db0 himself insist on aligning with them. https://hexbear.net/post/7507322/6879735

        • goat@sh.itjust.worksOPM
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          22 days ago

          Actually Existing Socialism

          It’s copetalk for Tankies to decide what is actual socialism and what is not. They believe China, Cuba, and Vietnam are all actually socialist. You can give them Cuba and Vietnam, but China? Hardly

      • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
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        23 days ago

        Literally reads like:

        “In every case in history, authoritarian communists have purged the anarchists after the success of the revolution. So you should accept our blanket leadership because otherwise we will be forced to purge you after the success of the revolution. And even if you do submit to us, you will be forever at our mercy because if we ever deem you as a threat then we will eliminate you.”

        Authoritarians in every form just can’t seem to see through their own narcissism…

  • Stern@lemmy.world
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    24 days ago

    One would think in a community that says no ML they would just ban on sight

    • Tomassci@sh.itjust.works
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      11 days ago

      It used to be anti-ML when I subbed to it, but now seems to be open MLs who just haven’t bothered to change the sign.

    • roundduckkira@sh.itjust.works
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      24 days ago

      I think part of this is the losing of hope within the left in systems that aren’t more forceful like ML, due to the failures of the progressive capitalist/socdem/demsocs in going against fascist and imperialist policy. Also because literally Cuba good (hot take!!!), as much as any other examples of ML end up in corrupt leaders and violence (Laos being anti-LGBT at least, and don’t get me started on how China isn’t even really ML anymore but rather a capitalist fascist country in the skin of a socialist country).

      • Tiresia@slrpnk.net
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        23 days ago

        Another part is probably how Lemmy moderators are structurally cops, and All Cops Are Bastards.

        Mods have a monopoly on the digital equivalent of violence (banning and deletion) and are expected and required to unilaterally use that monopoly to police the community. They have nearly unilateral discretion over how incidents are handled, and complaints are primarily taken care of through mods discussing internally.

        Communities may elect their mods, but given communities are defined by those who are not banned by mods, mods can use their discretion to ban dissenters whenever they can get away with it while only banning supporters when they have to. Thus communities evolve into ones that (vocally or passively) support their mods as long as those mods aren’t much more egregious than they have been so far. The vocal support then reinforces the mods’ beliefs in their righteousness, justifying their strictness, until they are a police state.

        Good mods get disgusted by this pipeline at some point during the process and stop being mods. Crappy mods speedrun the pipeline and become sad little kings of sad little hills. But insidious mods go through the pipeline slowly, creating an oasis of liberal stability where those that fit themselves within the mods’ Overton Window can have a flourishing community (hi goat!).

        And it’s hard to organize servers any other way because by default with our current capitalism digital infrastructure, the admin is the owner and users are producer-consumers who have no tools to project political power beyond what the admin deigns to bestow on them. Because the users are given no way to organize politically they devolve into chaos, so the admin makes use of the tools they have and polices the users or imports the position of moderator so approved users can police the other users.

        So over time, communities on the internet either collapse or have mods who grow from being willing to exist as liberal authorities to sympathizing with authoritarianism. So what anti-authoritarian doctrines there were that helped sustain the liberal oasis as long as they did start to feel naive or restrictive, while there is long precedent for silencing the complainers who rail against the edges of that increasingly less liberal oasis. And so authoritarianism arrives without fanfare, and those embarrassing rules that used to define the community are buried without ceremony.

        At the start there were thousands of frogs in the pot. As it became warm, frogs started jumping out, but I did not jump because I was not that kind of frog. As it became hot, more frogs jumped out, but I did not jump because I was not that kind of frog. And now it’s boiling, and my brain is too fried for me to ever want to jump anymore.

  • Digit@lemmy.wtf
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    24 days ago

    Afterthought [from both our experience] : maybe they’re just prejudiced and ableist against autistics.

    :3

    … and/or our blunt honesty, and our critiques of systems and logic.

    • goat@sh.itjust.worksOPM
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      24 days ago

      I gave db0 just a smidge of evidence that tankies are coordinating a takeover of Dbzer0, including dbzer0 admins aiding the takeover. Naturally, this is Db0’s reply He’s kinda given up, sad. He’d rather own the libs than admit he’s being treated like every single anarchist in history. Bizarre how they keep falling for betrayal. Perhaps this time the Authoritarians won’t eat me! Literal insanity.

      • Skiluros@sh.itjust.works
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        24 days ago

        I find their obsession with the term “libs” fascinating.

        It has a very different meaning outside of the US. Which goes to show that their whole “but my global south!!” is fake and performative.

        • AnyOldName3@lemmy.world
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          24 days ago

          It’s the outside-the-US meaning that anarchists would typically use, and the US-centric definition is effectively a subset of the general definition when viewed from a leftist perspective, as they’re both capitalist with minimal regulation, just in the US it’s got the added connotations of being less homophobic and racist etc. then the centre of the Overton window, whereas classic liberalism isn’t incompatible with racism and homophobia etc…

          • Skiluros@sh.itjust.works
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            24 days ago

            the US-centric definition is effectively a subset of the general definition

            Are you sure about that? Can you cite a real world comparative example with specifics (attitudes, views, perspective, key historical points relevant to this conversation)? No meaningless generalities.

            It’s the outside-the-US meaning that anarchists would typically use … when viewed from a leftist perspective, as they’re both capitalist with minimal regulation

            If that’s the case, are you saying that a liberal in Moldova, Oman and the US are all the same and “capitalist with minimal regulation” is all that they are?

            And the points above are just the tip of the iceberg, the kindergarten-level stuff.

            So here is another question, so when you say liberals in Oman and the US are a subset of the same thing, do anarchists have the final call of defining who qualifies as a liberal in Oman (or any other country)? Does self identification as liberal play any role or not? This is not a gotcha per se., well, maybe a little bit, I am referring to something specific :), but I am genuinely curious what you have to say on this.

            I will say it again, this really is fascinating. There is a certain abstract beauty to the whole obsession with “libs” among American internet “leftists”.

            • AnyOldName3@lemmy.world
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              23 days ago

              Liberalism is a really broad family of conflicting political and moral philosophies, and it’s really just the capitalist with minimal regulation bit that’s consistently there in all the branches. Most of the time, people are only dealing with different branches of liberalism, and depending on the local politics, there might only be one major political party in a country calling themselves the liberals.

              Generally, leftists will talk about liberals and liberalism a lot because they’re living under some branch of liberalism, and they disagree to some extent with every branch of liberalism. Socialism, Communism and Anarchism are not Liberalism (and if you want to upset tankies and say it’s distinct from communism or upset other leftists and say it’s leftist Marxism-Leninism is not liberalism, too). Fascism and Conservatism are also not liberalism, but they’re not leftist, either, and to confuse things, lots of political parties calling themselves conservative around the world only want things that fit a definition of liberalism.

              I mentioned anarchism and what anarchists think in the previous post because you replied to a post with a screenshot where an anarchist mentioned libs and seemed to think it was ambiguous what he meant, when it’s deducible from the fact that he’s an anarchist.

              • Skiluros@sh.itjust.works
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                21 days ago

                Why can’t you provide real world examples if we are supposed to take you at your word. This should be extremely easy.

                Note that I said: “attitudes, views, perspective, key historical points relevant to this conversation, no meaningless generalities.”

                and it’s really just the capitalist with minimal regulation bit that’s consistently there in all the branches.

                I do not find the last piece convincing because of certain real world examples (I’ve lived there for multiple years and speak the local language). Keep in mind that I don’t mean this a straightforward way, based on your reply, there may be things that you’ haven’t considered.

                Capitalism (not necessarily American-style oligarchy, or American style capitalism themed polemics and propaganda) is supported by almost everyone outside of tiny niches; it’s definitely not only supported liberals, so the capitalist identification is meaningless.

                Not that “capitalist with minimal regulation” is going to be helpful in the first place.

                You couldn’t even answer the kindergarten-level question:

                a liberal in Moldova, Oman and the US are all the same and “capitalist with minimal regulation” is all that they are?

                If anarchists believe this to be true, then they should say it openly. But I think everyone understands how stupid that would sound.

                Not to be overly uncharitable, but this is why a lot of English speaking (as a first language) self-identifying leftists come off as online roleplayers.

                If anything, if what you are saying is true, it only reinforces the notion that the obsession with “liberals” among internet leftists is mostly US-specific shitposting deeply tainted with American provincialism and lack of curiosity.

        • Rampsquatch@sh.itjust.works
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          24 days ago

          Anytime I see anyone use the word “lib” or “liberal” used the way these people do, I can’t help but think of Alex Jones. Not really the guy you want your behavior to remind people of, I think.

          • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
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            23 days ago

            Pretty sure a lot of them are an ancap psyop to divide the left over ideological purity tests and campism, while making leftism as a whole look bad from the outside…

        • Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
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          23 days ago

          same, only because the conservatives use “lib as insult too” see the common denominator. but they add “shitlib” as alternative. by in far US, has never been liberal in anyway, political or otherwise outside of a very small nich groups.

      • ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
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        24 days ago

        Okay, but do you expect them not to know who you are when you’re doing this?

        If pointing at the name Diva is self explanatory enough, so is pointing to the name goat. It’s just known users beefing with known users, regardless of content.

        Like, he surely knows he is talking to you on an account you made to evade your ban off his instance?

      • Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
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        23 days ago

        they also are infiltrating the more"neutral" political memes sub too, i noticed it has very tankie postings. after thier tankie instances have mostly been blocked by most fed users, i assume they arnt getting much engagement.

        • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
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          23 days ago

          “I don’t care if tankies call us libs, as long as they don’t call me a turbolib! Those damn turbolibs want us to ban tankies, can’t give them what they want!”

          Literally “one of the good ones” mentality, just move the overton window a little bit to the other side of yourself. I’m sure the face-eating leopards will accept you as one of their own…

      • Digit@lemmy.wtf
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        24 days ago

        we’re not going to ban tankies on sight

        But the start of the blurb on leftymemes says

        An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of “ML” (read: Dengist) influence.

        … ???

        Who are “turbolibs” and why are they trying to keep them happy? ???

        ???

        Bizarre how they keep falling for betrayal.

        Yeah. Mind-blowing.

      • PugJesus@piefed.social
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        24 days ago

        He’d rather own the libs than admit he’s being treated like every single anarchist in history.

        Nah, with terminally online cosplayers, the result is almost always “Mask off, actually was aligned with tankies all along” rather than “Principled opposition getting betrayed after alliance of convenience”. That’s more of a real-world anarchist pitfall.

        Tankies give them asspats and don’t demand anything of them, while evil liberals and demsocs actually demand some small baseline of action. If one’s interest in anarchism is more the sense of community than ideology, they pitch towards tankies hard. The reverse is rarer, despite tankies also being largely of the same mentality, because anarchism is less inherently tribalistic than ML insanity about orthodoxy and revisionism, making it less appealing to a tribalist mindset already immersed in such concepts.

        On the other hand, I’ve known a number of tankies through the years who pitched hard-right once they found community with online right-wingers.

        • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
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          23 days ago

          On the other hand, I’ve known a number of tankies through the years who pitched hard-right once they found community with online right-wingers.

          That doesn’t surprise me at all. Authoritarian-minded narcissists don’t care about ideological consistency, ethical reasoning, or contextual realism. They just care about the authoritarian grift that feeds their insatiable egos.

          They call the “horseshoe politics” argument “both-sides-ism” when it’s actually the opposite. “Both sides are bad” is an attempt to equate left-wing with right-wing politics to justify doomerism, complacency, and cynical accelerationism while claiming some sort of moral exceptionism (my ends justify my means because both sides are bad).

          “Horseshoe politics” on the other hand calls out ideological and methodological extremism on both sides. Its main claim is that authoritarianism is bad, regardless of which side of the political spectrum it falls on.

          It also comes as no surprise that these same types of “leftists” never call out trump, maga, and the actual fascists. No, they focus all their ire on corporate dems (who are deserving of critique within their own contexts, of course, but not to the exclusion of far-right conservatism), calling them “liberal fascists,” whatever the fuck that is, and watering down the term “fascist” so that we all sound like loonies whenever we call out actual fascism (such as maga/trumpism).

          • Stamau123@lemmy.world
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            23 days ago

            Yeah, I had to block so many ‘anarchist’ meme communities that were nothing but hating dems

            • tomenzgg@midwest.social
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              22 days ago

              For real; I posted a picture (not even a meme but a screenshot of a post I thought made a good point) in an ongoing thread regarding certain viabilities of anarchism and was the only one who got my comment deleted with just a line about bringing up strawmen and fallacies, apparently (it was more in depth with particular examples, compared to the other comments, so maybe it struck a nerve). Not even the tankie comms have deleted my comments over just simply countering me or just down voting.

              Felt more like trying to maintain a social club, than anything.

  • TheObviousSolution@lemmy.ca
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    24 days ago

    Tankie takeover? I always thought that the whole point of the anarchy instance was to try to pick up all people Russian-Chinese propaganda disguised under communist rhetoric couldn’t. It’s basically a charismatic facewash that falls back to the last wildcard of just trying to generically shit on governments because “they work against the people - but also, let’s create all the systems governments represent while just applying the stroke of its for the people somewhere”. In other words, it’s the communist mantra except rather than identifying itself as communism it just focuses on identifying governments bad while trying to promote governance but with some mental gymnastic spin.

    Not sure the whole lemmy-derived fediverse hasn’t been irrevocably tainted by these cult-forming/alt-bot factory communities. You can find instances that defederate from these, the problem is you immediately get a dissected part of the community because they are the baseline founding communities and the resulting conversations have discourse hidden from you that they don’t and can freely attempt to manipulate.

    • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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      23 days ago

      Anarchist are just tankies who don’t like the term. Kinda like conservatives who say they’re libertarians. They’re just magas with hammer and sickles.

      • goat@sh.itjust.worksOPM
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        23 days ago

        AI generated hammer and sickles

        nothing screams anarchist like using GenAI and enabling enshittification.