That extra $20k is for the EV’s battery. If you don’t spend it there, you’ll spend it on gasoline and ICE maintenance. Look at life cycle cost. Total costs over 8-10 years of ownerership. The average buyer will have less noise, less emissions, instant torque control, home charging, and cost savings if they keep the EV long enough.
You have a rough point, but a $20k delta is too much. Thankfully, the comparison is between a “special” car and a boring workhorse, so the price delta isn’t reflective of the practical choices. 7-passenger PV5 looks to be about $50k, so less than $10k delta between a Sienna and a comparable EV van. Still a pretty big gap, especially to take up front, but closer to reasonable given your reasons. We are seeing the gap close more aggressively in the 5-passenger segment, but 3-row still has been focused on EV only for ‘premium’ experience.
Lack of noise and emissions, instant torque control, and the possibility to charge at home are indeed premium experiences. A lot of ICE pushers are trying to get a free lunch here.
They’re inherent in the battery system. The manufacturer’s costs are in the battery. Propulsion, silence, no-emissions, instant torque, and home charging are the features we get with a battery whether we like it or not (no downside really). Price-wise, there is no point in talking about them separately. ICE pushers apparently forget the other features of the package. Manufactures must obviously charge a price for the package.
Even assuming those numbers are accurate it’s irrelevant. If I don’t have $60,000 then I can’t buy a $60,000 car even if it would be a sound investment over the long run.
I’d like to preface all of the following with something: a vehicle should account for no more than 10% of a household user’s budget, some say up to 15% but most of the literature I’ve seen puts it at or under 10% to maintain fiscal responsibility. That’s monthly ofc, and puts the total budget somewhere around $1,200-1,400 on most of these cars
So how many people do you know who make between $120,000-140,000 per driver?
Some of us do, most of us don’t
I know plenty of people who cannot and or will not for various reasons ever make that much in their lifetimes
Let’s say a 19 year old getting their first car without support. You think they can afford a 60k car? Hell even a 40k? At +6% apr? They still need a car and not all of us have or had parents to help us foot that bill
How about even a used one ran into the dirt at 20-25k to “establish credit”? Think that’s a good idea either for someone like that? Its a terrible one
Further, if literally anything goes wrong with the battery before it’s paid off but out of warranty… Then what? File bankruptcy at 20-25? Take the credit hit and be unable to buy another vehicle or, or get student loans, or be able to get a mortgage because your credit is shot?
No matter if the payback even makes sense we have prime examples that the economy is down right hostile to EV owners with the EV tax road hike increases forcing EV users to pay up to 10x road “gas” tax equivalents of what petrol does in the US regardless if they drive 1,000 miles in a year or 40,000
Plain and simple, all commuter/work vehicles are not worth $40,000-60,000. They are grossly overpriced and have been since at least 2020
The $70,000 GMC EV work truck trim with 450 miles of range? That’s worth $45,000 max. The Tesla model 3 dual motor (which I paid $60,000 for new in 2023 btw) are worth $35,000 max brand new top trim model and has never been worth more than that despite the insane market gauntlet we’ve been run through
The person you are responding to is not even slightly wrong
Vehicles are grossly overpriced.
Front loading potential savings is not an acceptable practice in an economy where people do not have the option to go without a vehicle to function. Prices needs to crater. Companies need to be making any profits they do make off the back of quantity sold, and off government subsidies and cutting out middle men not massive margins per lesser quantities of vehicles at our expense, because as things stand they’re making their margins off of government bailouts anyways and consumers are perpetually the ones getting bent since taxes are our money and these incompetents are increasingly demanding more and more of it
To be completely honest, I don’t expect many people will.
Increasingly, people are completely incapable of reading on these platforms… you know, these ones designed to communicate via…reading and writing,…But what can you do?
Whoever you are if you made it this far, if your attention span has managed to remain unharmed in today’s world, read or dont. Your choice, and your responsibility to deal with the fallout of either wasted time or losses in personal capability either way not mine
People need to stop quoting Elon Musk. That was true in 2012. Buzz battery is 90kwhr, the cost of batteries is now $120/kWh.
So the whole pack costs $11k. Funny how with ICE now one quotes the cost of a catalytic system or how much mining goes on for the platinum and rhodium in cats. ID Buzz is overpriced, plus it’s not even good. It’s a small van.
This isn’t an issue with electric vehicles its an issue with EV’s from traditional ICE based car companies, and the governments refusal to subsidize their purchase or the companies that manufacture them.
Sure, they have to buy their batteries from China, who probably enjoys that profit margin. Traditional ICE based car companies dug their own graves by insisting on staying at the starting line for 20 years, pushing their ICE garbage instead of supporting local refinining.
Traditional ICE based car companies dug their own graves by insisting on staying at the starting line for 20 years
Good thing we re-elected an administration that will encourage them to keep standing at the starting line, scratching their butts, watching the race on tv
Traditional ICE based car companies dug their own graves by insisting on staying at the starting line for 20 years, pushing their ICE garbage instead of supporting local refinining.
Nope. Joe Biden spent billions on battery valley to make batteries in the USA, then you idiots re-elected Trump and he put your asses back in the stone age. That’s why Detroit is fucked. Then, he tariffed any imported batteries.
Is that some kind of gotcha or something?
The average car buyer does not want to buy an expensive EV just to have an EV and will buy a $40k Toyota Sienna before they buy a $60k VW ID.Buzz.
Pretty easy to grasp…It’s not rocket surgery. Make affordable EVs and not upmarket EVs and people will buy them. China figured that out.
That extra $20k is for the EV’s battery. If you don’t spend it there, you’ll spend it on gasoline and ICE maintenance. Look at life cycle cost. Total costs over 8-10 years of ownerership. The average buyer will have less noise, less emissions, instant torque control, home charging, and cost savings if they keep the EV long enough.
You have a rough point, but a $20k delta is too much. Thankfully, the comparison is between a “special” car and a boring workhorse, so the price delta isn’t reflective of the practical choices. 7-passenger PV5 looks to be about $50k, so less than $10k delta between a Sienna and a comparable EV van. Still a pretty big gap, especially to take up front, but closer to reasonable given your reasons. We are seeing the gap close more aggressively in the 5-passenger segment, but 3-row still has been focused on EV only for ‘premium’ experience.
Lack of noise and emissions, instant torque control, and the possibility to charge at home are indeed premium experiences. A lot of ICE pushers are trying to get a free lunch here.
Sure, those are premium things, but don’t actually drive the manufacturer’s cost as those come mostly for free.
So it drives bigger margin for them instead, but at the expense of people perceiving EV as somehow fundamentally too expensive.
They’re inherent in the battery system. The manufacturer’s costs are in the battery. Propulsion, silence, no-emissions, instant torque, and home charging are the features we get with a battery whether we like it or not (no downside really). Price-wise, there is no point in talking about them separately. ICE pushers apparently forget the other features of the package. Manufactures must obviously charge a price for the package.
Even assuming those numbers are accurate it’s irrelevant. If I don’t have $60,000 then I can’t buy a $60,000 car even if it would be a sound investment over the long run.
If you insist on buying a car new instead of second-hand, that’s on you.
Dude I’m only using your numbers.
$40k and $60k are YOUR numbers. I subtracted YOUR numbers to get 20k.
The used market isn’t much better. I can’t afford a $26,000 EV with 100k miles on it. That’s insane.
A higher budget surely allows for more options and less excuses. In my view, anyone with a 50k budget has no excuse to choose ICE over EV.
sounds like you want a free car.
I’d like to preface all of the following with something: a vehicle should account for no more than 10% of a household user’s budget, some say up to 15% but most of the literature I’ve seen puts it at or under 10% to maintain fiscal responsibility. That’s monthly ofc, and puts the total budget somewhere around $1,200-1,400 on most of these cars
So how many people do you know who make between $120,000-140,000 per driver?
Some of us do, most of us don’t
I know plenty of people who cannot and or will not for various reasons ever make that much in their lifetimes
Let’s say a 19 year old getting their first car without support. You think they can afford a 60k car? Hell even a 40k? At +6% apr? They still need a car and not all of us have or had parents to help us foot that bill
How about even a used one ran into the dirt at 20-25k to “establish credit”? Think that’s a good idea either for someone like that? Its a terrible one
Further, if literally anything goes wrong with the battery before it’s paid off but out of warranty… Then what? File bankruptcy at 20-25? Take the credit hit and be unable to buy another vehicle or, or get student loans, or be able to get a mortgage because your credit is shot?
No matter if the payback even makes sense we have prime examples that the economy is down right hostile to EV owners with the EV tax road hike increases forcing EV users to pay up to 10x road “gas” tax equivalents of what petrol does in the US regardless if they drive 1,000 miles in a year or 40,000
Plain and simple, all commuter/work vehicles are not worth $40,000-60,000. They are grossly overpriced and have been since at least 2020
The $70,000 GMC EV work truck trim with 450 miles of range? That’s worth $45,000 max. The Tesla model 3 dual motor (which I paid $60,000 for new in 2023 btw) are worth $35,000 max brand new top trim model and has never been worth more than that despite the insane market gauntlet we’ve been run through
The person you are responding to is not even slightly wrong
Vehicles are grossly overpriced.
Front loading potential savings is not an acceptable practice in an economy where people do not have the option to go without a vehicle to function. Prices needs to crater. Companies need to be making any profits they do make off the back of quantity sold, and off government subsidies and cutting out middle men not massive margins per lesser quantities of vehicles at our expense, because as things stand they’re making their margins off of government bailouts anyways and consumers are perpetually the ones getting bent since taxes are our money and these incompetents are increasingly demanding more and more of it
I don’t think you wrote all of that just for me.
I didnt write it 🙃
VTT with a bit of editing removing punctuation and breaking up blocks of text
LLMs are useful for some things
Only if someone cares to read it.
To be completely honest, I don’t expect many people will.
Increasingly, people are completely incapable of reading on these platforms… you know, these ones designed to communicate via…reading and writing,…But what can you do?
Whoever you are if you made it this far, if your attention span has managed to remain unharmed in today’s world, read or dont. Your choice, and your responsibility to deal with the fallout of either wasted time or losses in personal capability either way not mine
Yeah no people don’t read AI slop. Telling it apart has become a marketable skill.
… You think TTS is Ai slop?
Lmfao
It’s talking to your phone and it translates audio to words and words to audio
People need to stop quoting Elon Musk. That was true in 2012. Buzz battery is 90kwhr, the cost of batteries is now $120/kWh. So the whole pack costs $11k. Funny how with ICE now one quotes the cost of a catalytic system or how much mining goes on for the platinum and rhodium in cats. ID Buzz is overpriced, plus it’s not even good. It’s a small van.
This isn’t an issue with electric vehicles its an issue with EV’s from traditional ICE based car companies, and the governments refusal to subsidize their purchase or the companies that manufacture them.
Sure, they have to buy their batteries from China, who probably enjoys that profit margin. Traditional ICE based car companies dug their own graves by insisting on staying at the starting line for 20 years, pushing their ICE garbage instead of supporting local refinining.
Good thing we re-elected an administration that will encourage them to keep standing at the starting line, scratching their butts, watching the race on tv
Nope. Joe Biden spent billions on battery valley to make batteries in the USA, then you idiots re-elected Trump and he put your asses back in the stone age. That’s why Detroit is fucked. Then, he tariffed any imported batteries.