“you owe me for giving birth to you and putting a roof over your head” is pretty far out
Lots of parents throw this out half-joking. “I was in labor for eight hours, the least you can do is spend ten minutes cleaning your room” or some variation of it is a thing my mom would toss off on occasion.
You owe it to the kid you decided to have to care for it as best you can
We owe it to one another to be good in turn. The value of family is in building up the cycle of mutual aid. It’s never a one-way street.
Edit: here’s a thing people from functional families do not understand:
We did not have your experience. We are not whining because of misconceptions. Our childhoods were monstrous. Our family units objectively broken. There is no familial bond, only trauma ones.
You cannot understand because you have no frame of reference to this level of dysfunction. And so you try and apply your framework instead, and skew the corners to fit.
I guarantee you my parents said all of this in all seriousness. It took decades of therapy to undo the damage of my childhood and I still have issues to work through.
I’m sure there are some that joke around and that’s fine. I’m not trying to claim your mother was abusive when she said it. But I wouldn’t use that as an excuse to minimize a lot of others pain.
/>I throw someone who doesn’t know how to swim into a pool.
/>I save this person’s life, getting him safely out of the pool.
/>This person must now risk his life and save me in return.
We owe it to one another to be good in turn. The value of family is in building up the cycle of mutual aid. It’s never a one-way street.
Why? You (not YOU but a parent) decided to procreate. Everything that follows is yours alone to deal with. I (the kid) never was asked to exist. Why do I owe you anything at all?
Yes. That gives them the conscious option, not the obligation.
Any expectant mother who miscarries can tell you why you’re wrong.
I spoke with many so far and wouldn’t know what that would have to do with anything?
Despite the tragedy of misscariage, it was still a one-way-decision to procreate. The result of it doesn’t touch the point. The resulting kid had no choice to exist or not to exist. It was first thrown into existence and then out of it again. It didn’t ask for either.
I don’t say kids shouldn’t be thankful or be in owing. They’re just no obliged to do so.
You can’t set a kid in this world, expecting it to pay you back somehow. It might, it probably will. It might also hate you for it. But it doesn’t HAVE to do any of it.
Still wouldn’t change that YOU alone forced life into existence. If it needs therapy, you’re at the absolute lowest root of a causal-chain.
Noone questions if you’re fully alone responsible for a pet you got. Even if it still bites you and won’t show “thankfulness”. But kids is just a thing that happens and it’s nobody’s fault or responsibility?
Why do you think it owes you gratitude? For the gift of life?
We’re all born into our various countries each of which places demands on us. And often that’s under threat of imprisonment or even death and with little of value in return. Yet people are patriotic and support that system. Even if some of us might say it is better that countries couldn’t do that, the fact that it’s widely supported means that there’s some basis for it that humanity recognizes.
Then compare that to a parent who selflessly loves and gives and gives. It’s very reasonable to say that parents are owed something.
Then compare that to a parent who selflessly loves and gives and gives. It’s very reasonable to say that parents are owed something.
That’s the thing. They’re not. You surely CAN be grateful and thankful and whatnot. Of course. But you don’t owe it to them. Were you asked if you want to exist? Were you asked if you want to be part of this society?
The rest you said isn’t wrong. I just fail to see the direct correlation between “i force you into this world without asking consent” and “because of that you owe me something”.
If I take you hostage and treat you super-well and lovely, do you owe me something?
Just because a baby can’t consent before being born, doesn’t automatically mean it has to be thankful for it. Doesn’t mean you mustn’t or couldn’t or even shouldn’t. But you don’t HAVE TO.
Joking or not the sentiment is still damaging to a child’s mental state. You don’t get to pick what sentiments a child will internalize. The rhetoric is conditioning them to feel like love and respect are transactional things. It’s teaching them that guilt tripping people to coerce their behavior is okay by treating it as casual. It’s toxic. “It’s just a joke” is a bullshit excuse. Always has been.
The mutual aid argument doesn’t work when one party is dependent upon the other for their upbringing and care. Mutual aid requires both parties to be functionally independent and a child does not have that level of autonomy being dependent upon the parent to raise them so they can become independent. A child is not responsible for the well being of the parent. It is the responsibility of the parents to put their problems aside for the well being of their children.
There’s a big gulf between conveying the challenges of being a parent to your kid and just nagging them over bullshit.
Part of transitioning to adulthood is recognizing the struggles your parents experience, both in raising you and in taking care of themselves independent of their own parents. Then you strive for independence - at least in part - because you recognize you can’t lean on your parents forever. And, finally, you might even decide to take care of children, because you want to pay the debt of childcare forward into the next generation.
Lots of parents throw this out half-joking. “I was in labor for eight hours, the least you can do is spend ten minutes cleaning your room” or some variation of it is a thing my mom would toss off on occasion.
We owe it to one another to be good in turn. The value of family is in building up the cycle of mutual aid. It’s never a one-way street.
Its a shit joke and you shouldn’t be making it
Edit: here’s a thing people from functional families do not understand:
We did not have your experience. We are not whining because of misconceptions. Our childhoods were monstrous. Our family units objectively broken. There is no familial bond, only trauma ones.
You cannot understand because you have no frame of reference to this level of dysfunction. And so you try and apply your framework instead, and skew the corners to fit.
Don’t do that.
I guarantee you my parents said all of this in all seriousness. It took decades of therapy to undo the damage of my childhood and I still have issues to work through.
I’m sure there are some that joke around and that’s fine. I’m not trying to claim your mother was abusive when she said it. But I wouldn’t use that as an excuse to minimize a lot of others pain.
/>I throw someone who doesn’t know how to swim into a pool.
/>I save this person’s life, getting him safely out of the pool.
/>This person must now risk his life and save me in return.
Are you suggesting swim lessons are bad, because you don’t start out knowing how to swim?
20 mins in the penalty box for fallacious arguments
FIFA tier reffing
Yeah how dare blind kids not learn braille and read a book jeez they’re fed aren’t they
Why? You (not YOU but a parent) decided to procreate. Everything that follows is yours alone to deal with. I (the kid) never was asked to exist. Why do I owe you anything at all?
Because it’s the foundation of a functioning civilization.
That’s demonstrably not true.
Why should one’s offspring care for that? It never ask to be in that civilization?
If this makes you feel better? Doesn’t change the fact that procreating is a one-way-decision-street. Yours.
Because they’re human
Any expectant mother who miscarries can tell you why you’re wrong.
Yes. That gives them the conscious option, not the obligation.
I spoke with many so far and wouldn’t know what that would have to do with anything? Despite the tragedy of misscariage, it was still a one-way-decision to procreate. The result of it doesn’t touch the point. The resulting kid had no choice to exist or not to exist. It was first thrown into existence and then out of it again. It didn’t ask for either.
I don’t say kids shouldn’t be thankful or be in owing. They’re just no obliged to do so. You can’t set a kid in this world, expecting it to pay you back somehow. It might, it probably will. It might also hate you for it. But it doesn’t HAVE to do any of it.
Because that’s how society works, mutualism.
I’m not stupid, but…who asked your offspring if it wants to be part of that? You forced it into existence.
Asking consent of the future is ridiculous, and being mad about existing means you need therapy.
Still wouldn’t change that YOU alone forced life into existence. If it needs therapy, you’re at the absolute lowest root of a causal-chain.
Noone questions if you’re fully alone responsible for a pet you got. Even if it still bites you and won’t show “thankfulness”. But kids is just a thing that happens and it’s nobody’s fault or responsibility?
Why do you think it owes you gratitude? For the gift of life?
Who said anything about gratitude? The continuation of the species is just what life is. The cycle is amoral and unfeeling.
We’re all born into our various countries each of which places demands on us. And often that’s under threat of imprisonment or even death and with little of value in return. Yet people are patriotic and support that system. Even if some of us might say it is better that countries couldn’t do that, the fact that it’s widely supported means that there’s some basis for it that humanity recognizes.
Then compare that to a parent who selflessly loves and gives and gives. It’s very reasonable to say that parents are owed something.
That’s the thing. They’re not. You surely CAN be grateful and thankful and whatnot. Of course. But you don’t owe it to them. Were you asked if you want to exist? Were you asked if you want to be part of this society? The rest you said isn’t wrong. I just fail to see the direct correlation between “i force you into this world without asking consent” and “because of that you owe me something”. If I take you hostage and treat you super-well and lovely, do you owe me something? Just because a baby can’t consent before being born, doesn’t automatically mean it has to be thankful for it. Doesn’t mean you mustn’t or couldn’t or even shouldn’t. But you don’t HAVE TO.
Joking or not the sentiment is still damaging to a child’s mental state. You don’t get to pick what sentiments a child will internalize. The rhetoric is conditioning them to feel like love and respect are transactional things. It’s teaching them that guilt tripping people to coerce their behavior is okay by treating it as casual. It’s toxic. “It’s just a joke” is a bullshit excuse. Always has been.
The mutual aid argument doesn’t work when one party is dependent upon the other for their upbringing and care. Mutual aid requires both parties to be functionally independent and a child does not have that level of autonomy being dependent upon the parent to raise them so they can become independent. A child is not responsible for the well being of the parent. It is the responsibility of the parents to put their problems aside for the well being of their children.
I have known so many parents who believe that seriously, and want their kids to understand the sacrifice they are making for those brats.
There’s a big gulf between conveying the challenges of being a parent to your kid and just nagging them over bullshit.
Part of transitioning to adulthood is recognizing the struggles your parents experience, both in raising you and in taking care of themselves independent of their own parents. Then you strive for independence - at least in part - because you recognize you can’t lean on your parents forever. And, finally, you might even decide to take care of children, because you want to pay the debt of childcare forward into the next generation.
You’re approaching this with the attitude of a parent who’s already got their future grandkids named.
UnderpantsWeevil III
I pray to whatever god wants to listen that you don’t have kids. You are a legitimately awful parent.